Episode 119: Jazz Lessons from Musical Mathematician Lawrence Udeigwe

If music is a language of emotions, mathematics is a language of the nature of reality. In this episode, jazz musician and mathematician Lawrence Udeigwe reveals how these two languages inform each other, and the lessons they hold for everyday life. We discuss his new album, Four Lemmas, and how he bridges the worlds of music and math in his creative, academic, and teaching work. Dr. Udeigwe is a Professor of Mathematics at Manhattan University and a Research Affiliate in Brain and Cognitive Sciences at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). His work integrates teaching and research, with a focus on incorporating research-driven ideas into the classroom to advance mathematics pedagogy and curriculum development.

For our Creativity Pro-Tip, we encourage you to be bold in bringing together your diverse talents and interests int something new and unique, and to be flexible with your To Do list - If you don’t get it done today, there’s always tomorrow!

Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.

If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process in a variety of contexts, you might also like our conversations in Episode 9: Music and Psychology: "The Pocket" Experience with Dr. Jeff Mims, Episode 113: Music Mindfulness and Healing with Dr. AZA Allsop, and Episode 117: Creativity, Anxiety, and Authenticity with Amanda Beck, PhD. 

At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you’re not sure how to get it off the ground, find us at syncreate.org. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching to help you bring your work to the world. You can find more information on our website, where you can also find all of our podcast episodes. Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review! We’d love to hear your feedback as well, so drop us a line at info@syncreate.org. 

Episode-specific hyperlinks: 

Lawrence’s Website 

Lawrence’s Instagram

Four Lemmas Album on YouTube

Show / permanent hyperlinks: 

The Syncreate Podcast

Syncreate Website

Syncreate Instagram

Syncreate Facebook

Syncreate LinkedIn

Syncreate YouTube

Melinda Rothouse Website

Austin Writing Coach

Melinda Joy Music Website

Transcript

Melinda: Welcome to Syncreate, a show for creative seekers. We explore the intersections between creativity, psychology and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to create. Our goal is to demystify the process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. We talk with visionaries and changemakers, and everyday creatives working in a wide range of fields and media - from the arts to science, technology and business. 

We aim to illuminate the creative process, from imagination to innovation and everything in between. I'm Melinda Rothouse and I help individuals and organizations bring their dreams and visions to life. At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you're not quite sure how to get it off the ground, find us at syncreate.org. 

Our book, also called Syncreate, is available in both print and audio format. It walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools and coaching to help you bring your work to the world. 

My guest today is Lawrence Udeigwe. He's a mathematician, as well as a jazz musician. He's a professor of mathematics at Manhattan University and a research affiliate in Brain and Cognitive Sciences at MIT. His work integrates teaching and research, with a focus on incorporating research driven ideas into the classroom to advance mathematics pedagogy and curriculum development. We'll be talking today about how he bridges his teaching, mathematics, and musical endeavors. Well, welcome, Lawrence. It's so great to have you on this show and so glad you could be here. 

Lawrence: Thank you, Melinda. 

Melinda: We recently connected on Instagram - the great connecting spot. And I was really curious about your work because you're both a professor, mathematician and a musician. And I'm really curious how you bridge those two worlds. We talked a little bit about that in our initial conversation, and I, like you, you know, have kind of one foot in academia and one foot in the music world. 

And it, you know, can be an interesting space to navigate. But I know you have an album coming out and that also explores some of the principles of mathematics. So, maybe we can just kind of dive in there. Tell us more about it. 

Lawrence: My album is called Four Lemmas and it's actually out already. Came out on May 1st. 

Melinda: Okay. Great. 

Lawrence: So, a lemma in mathematics, it's a small fact. Like a small truth. But it's usually a small truth established to help you build a larger truth. It's like a building block towards a larger truth. So, what I did in this album is that I kind of took bits and pieces of what I think is fact in life. And my goal is towards building this framework for identity that works for me, that could work for anybody too. So, since I'm a mathematician and I'm using the concept of a lemma, I structure each truths, each fact, to be an analogy to a mathematical concept. 

And those four concepts (which are the four lemmas), are the concepts of orthogonality, which explores the idea of independence. Sometimes (or most of the times), we actually need independence in order to achieve what we are going for in life. And then the concept of sparsity, which is… which happens to the idea of clarity of mind. And then the concept of local maximum, which is the idea of being aware of where you are in life. 

If you are at the peak, you may not always be at the peak. It may still be time to keep growing. To get up. To keep growing. And then the concept of stable equilibrium, which is talking about the idea of always making sure to you return to who you are. No matter how perturbed you are in life, you are able to return to who you are. So, that’s the first concept. I can keep going, but I'd like you to talk. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah.. Yeah. I love that. Actually… so, it's interesting to me because I don't consider myself a math person. But my father was a math major. 

Lawrence: Oh, wow. 

Melinda: So, I, you know, am familiar with some of these ideas, but I love that these principles from mathematics can apply to our day-to-day lives. You know, things, ideas around identity and independence, and kind of figuring out, orienting yourself in the world, and so forth. So, how do you explore those concepts musically? 

Lawrence: Musically? 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Lawrence: Yes. It turns out that just like you said, that you didn't know that math could be applied to these concepts, (laughter) and then you went ahead, you really explained it, (laughter) and really you started applying it. So, it turns out math can be seen everywhere, can be experienced in everything. There is mathematics to be found in everything we do. And there is a classical sense of exploring mathematics in music. Which is by hearing this sound, digging into the physics of it and figuring out what are the overtones and what are the mathematical structures in this musical composition… can I hit a Fibonacci sequence, and so forth? 

In this album, that’s not what I did. What I did was that I let the music be, I let the sound be. I didn't bother its sound or wait for a sound that is accessible to the modern, music listener. What I now did is that I let that sound guide me to developing themes for the lyrics. And then I let the sound be like a palette, and then I painted on the palette, and… but then the mathematics gave me the language to paint on this palette. So, that’s how it happens. And that's how it's been happening lately for me. I’ve been… I'm embracing my duality more. 

Melinda: Yes. 

Lawrence: My artistry. I would I say mathematical side. (Laughter) And they're coming together. And beautifully. And it's something that took a while. It took the longest time. I remember when I was in grad school, that was when I got my first band. I couldn't tell my professors about it because I didn't know how they would look at me, you know? But I was equally serious about it as I was with my graduate studies in mathematics. So, it was like, this tension, this huge tension. When I finished my… when I got my PhD, I moved to New York to live. 

Now formed another band, and it took a while for me to tell my colleagues, “Hey, I'm a mathematician, but I also do music.” It took the longest time to tell my students, but then they started finding out about it, and I had no choice than to reveal it to everybody. (Laughter) So, you asked about balance… it was tough. There was tension there gradually. Now I think there is balance, and I hope to make that balance stronger and more steady. 

Melinda: Yeah. I love that because I can certainly relate to it, you know, when I first started teaching - I've also been a musician for a long time, - but I, I kind of felt like I had to lead this double life. Like, by day I was a professor and by night I was a performing musician. And never should these two identities meet. But over time, I think you and I, and many others - Dr. AZA, who I've also had on the show - you know, are finding ways to bridge those worlds more and more. And that they actually inform and complement, and enrich each other in really interesting ways. Yeah. 

Lawrence I was just listening to your album. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Oh, thanks. (Laughter) 

Lawrence: Yeah. I listened to this… the was a song I kept listening to was like, Firefly. 

Melinda: Yeah. (Laughter) 

Lawrence: I like the banging intro. 

Melinda: Yeah. Thanks. Sorry - I’m sorry - I just had to put that in - 

Melinda: No, no - that’s great. I love it. I love it. Yeah. So, I'm curious, you grew up in Nigeria, and how did you get interested in both math and music? Was it something that just came naturally? Was it from your family? Or what inspired you? 

Lawrence: I think it’s… I’m going to give a contradictory answer. It didn't come from my family, but it came naturally, you know. Some people, when it comes from their family, they say, “Okay, this is natural because I grew up with it.” So for me, the fact that it didn't come from my family, none of my parents were practicing musicians. That's why I believe it came more naturally. Chose me. Growing up, I knew I wanted to be in the arts, you know. I gravitated towards acting, (laughter) you know. I see myself being an actor. I go to/gravitated towards acting and towards singing. 

But at the same time that I was in elementary school, I was a really good student. (Laughter) My specialty was mathematics. And I went to junior high and high school. What we call secondary school in Nigeria. And it remained so - I was really good at math. Growing up, I didn't play any instrument, until maybe end of high school. That was when I got interested in the piano and some percussion. 

So, I didn't have the courage to approach my parents and explain to them, "Hey, I actually want to do music…” because I knew what the answer would be, you know? I grew up in this small town, Makurdi, in the middle of Nigeria and the Middle Belt region of Nigeria. An estate called Benue State. And it's a small, sleepy town compared to where I am now. Compared to most places I've been to. (Laughter) Yeah, we had just one radio station and one FM station, and then one TV station. The TV station didn't start until 4 p.m. and when it started at 4 p.m., it started with, with lectures. Weird enough, with like geography lectures on TV. Math. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Interesting. 

Lawrence: Integrated science lectures. So, looking back - this sounds so weird - but it's back then, it was just something I was used to. So, I don't know what that was. I think it gave me this room to just explore things and allow me to focus, you know, on the things that I chose to explore. So, I focused really much on my academics then. And then when I listened to music, I listened to them so deeply, you know. Because there's this one radio station, and I keep playing the same song over and over again. There was this song, If You Asked Me To by Patti LaBelle, that I remember listening to over a girl, because they kept playing it over and over. (Laughter) 

And then another song, a lot of Snoop Dogg back in the day songs, you know? The G Funk Era and all those, they kept playing them over and over, and I listened. I listened and knew the words to all of them. But I knew… that was when I started realizing I want to study music. I want to learn more about music, you know? So, after secondary school, I applied to come to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, for a Bachelor's degree. I came for Computer Science, and I ended up with it. My degree and a Computer Science degree. That's the story for another day. 

And that's where I started doing music. Along the way, I discovered jazz, and I fell in love with jazz, you know. 

I fell in love with the dissonance, the freedom and everything. And since then, it's been that way. I think I told you this when we were talking, but after graduation, I said to myself, "Okay, this is the time to move to New York and do something in music. Maybe theater, and just find out what I can do.” By then, I was already more informed about how things happen, how people just graduate and then they move to New York and figure it out. But I was still a student. I was still on a student visa then. It would have been very difficult to do that. So I went back to school. 

Melinda: (Laughter) What do you do when you don't know what to do? Go back to school. 

Lawrence: Exactly. I went back to school. I went back. I said, “You know what? This time I'm just going to focus, get a PhD. By the time I finish this degree, that childish bug of music that that has been following me. (Laughter) You know, I'm going to recover from it.” No. 

Melinda: Right? No. It never goes away. (Laughter) 

Lawrence: No. No. Because eight years in graduate school. And then what? I came out, the first thing I said to myself is “I want to move to a city where I can do this professor job, but then have a band.” And I moved. So I found a job. I found two jobs in New York City. I chose one, and then I moved here. And in two weeks after moving in, I had my first band. I built my first band in New York City. 

Melinda: Amazing. 

Lawrence: Yeah. And then, I just… it has just been that way since then. Yeah. So that's it. I think it shows me it's something that has been following me. And, there has been tension along the way. There's been a lot of failures along the way, that I feel like gradually, I'm finding my place where I can belong without being bothered, without worrying about the traps or the worries. The tension of will I succeed or not? Will I make it? Will I blow up? I don't think of those anymore. I just enjoy what I do. Yeah. 

Melinda: That’s the most important thing, right? Just to do what you do creatively because you love it and then, you know, see what happens. But, I’m curious that you mentioned like, a lot of failures on the way, because I think a lot of us can relate with that with our creative work. And on some level, you know, failure is necessary because that's how we learn and how we grow. And it means we're experimenting and we're taking risks. And sometimes, they don't always work out. But it's better to do that than not try at all, right? 

Lawrence: Exactly. Exactly. 

Melinda: Yeah. So, like, what's… does anything come to mind as far as, like, a failure that helped you grow in terms of your music? 

Lawrence: Oh, A lot. A lot. How much time do we have? 

Melinda: Right. (Laughter) 

Lawrence: Okay. In grad school, I took an exam. I actually failed it. (Laughter) It’s called  a preliminary exam. And if you get a PhD in mathematics, in most universities back then, there is a preliminary exam that you have to take, and then there's a qualifying exam you have to take, and then there is a comp - sorry - there’s a preliminary, there's a comprehensive exam, and then there is qualifying. It's three. In most other disciplines it's two, you know, it's only one. So, the preliminary is to test your overall capacity to be… to even start the program, to start research and the program. And I didn't pass. I wasn't the only one. I did expect to pass. 

And I went to the graduate director then and I told him, “Oh, I'm just trying to figure out what to do so that I will do really well in the next one.” And he said to me, “I think you have to decide to be a musician or a mathematician.” (Laughter) And the first thing that came to my mind was, there are some students in the program who had kids. I knew somebody who was married and had like, maybe two kids or something. And the first… what I wanted to ask him was, “Did they have to choose if they had to have children?” (Laughter) You know? Do mathematics or music. Well, like, what I'm giving to the world. Like, have children, you know, then. Yeah. 

So, that was… I learned then to accept the challenges that were going to come with who I am, you know. Accept push back, that’s going to come with the person that I was meant to be… everybody's not going to accept. Everybody's not going to like, immediately find it interesting, you know. Because some people, a lot of people, once they find out…. these images say mathematician… if I was interested in something, they're curious. They want to know, what is this you're doing? Why can't you see, you know? 

And then in music, (laughter) there’s been a lot of failure. I mean, I'm sure, you know, you’re a musician, you're an artist. Art is, like, “Okay, you keep failing and then you succeed…” and, yeah. That one failure came to mind. And I don't know if I'll call that failure, but I think it is. I think it's a lesson. I did an album. I rushed it because I wanted to put something out. I just thought, “It’s time to put something out.” 

Melinda: I know the feeling. 

Lawrence: I was working on it and then at a point, I just put it out. And interestingly, I had a reputable… his name is Poojie Bell. He worked with Angelique Kidjo; he has worked with her on a whole lot of albums. So, he played on the album, and when I finished the first draft, I sent it to him. He's like “Solid music, but I think it still needs to sit and it needs more work and it needs… just sit with it for a while, sit with it for like, six months and grow.” You know, I think he actually said one year, you know. And “Go and listen to it and then take some things out.” 

It didn't make any sense to me. (Laughter) You know, I'm such a person who, you wouldn't go back to them… and he’s traveling, he’s touring and he just… what advice he gives you, he just gives it casually, you know. You wouldn't go back and be like, “Okay, please explain this to me…” or something. You know? Well, I didn’t. “I'm going to just put the music out.” And then after a while, I grew, musically. Yeah. I listened to it ,and I took it down. 

Melinda: Oh, wow. Yeah. That’s bold. 

Lawrence: That's right. Yeah. And by then, I had already done another album. 

Melinda: Wow. 

Lawrence: So, I went on… I took two albums down. 

Melinda: Wow. 

Lawrence: Right. Yeah. So that's one I don't think… you can find a song… but I took it down. The second one that I took down, I redid it. I left the music. Musically, I had  grown then that my music, my playing was good, but my singing, I didn’t… I thought it could be better. So, I went and I redid the whole vocals - 

Melinda: Wow. 

Lawrence: And I reimagined the album. So, right now, I learned to take my time. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm learning not to not take forever. Because sometimes when it's done, it's done right? You know? Yeah. And I'm also learning that every song has its form and its DNA, and what it's supposed to be. And you can't force some things on them. Right? Some songs are meant to sound live. You can't make the sound pop, unpolished. If that's what you got, that's what you got. Some songs are meant to sound sad, so you can make them sound happy, even if they're in a major key, you know? Some songs are just meant to be one single vocal. You can't stop trying to stack a lot of background vocals on them, you know? 

So, I've grown so much. I've pulled an album, you know. (Laughter) And tossed it to the corner for a while. And that money, let it just go, you know? So I've lost money, but in the process but I've learned. I've learned to know how to grow and how to preserve my essence. Because sometimes, I look back to what happened then… I was actually forcing the music. I was forcing them to be what they are not. Some of them were just supposed to be three instruments, you know?  

I was putting on this, and putting on that. And then at the end, the mixing didn't come out right. And that was what Poojie Bell was telling me. He's like, “Yeah, just sit on it and keep listening to it, and then figure out what to take out and what to put back in.” Yeah. 

Melinda: Yeah. I love that. I mean, it actually sounds like there's a lot of lessons in there, and I can certainly relate as well. It's like, you know, what is the character of each song and what does it need? Not too little, not too much. But also, you know, taking the time to let things ripen, I guess, in a way. But also knowing that sweet spot between not holding on to it too long, but not putting it out too soon. 

Lawrence: Exactly.

Melinda: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. I’m working on an album now as well, so I'm like, thinking about it in terms of my songs as well. 

Lawrence: Yeah. Yeah. Now I just… I let the songs sit, and I keep listening to them. Once I start getting bored, I start thinking of new songs, and then I know that it's time to let them go. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Great. So, I'm curious, also, since you're a professor and you work with students in mathematics… I'm curious how you bring the music into your teaching. Because obviously we know that music is inherently mathematical, right? I mean, it has a certain rhythm and certain patterns, and certain scales and frequencies and all these kind of things. So, how do you talk about music and mathematics with your students? 

Lawrence: An album like Four Lemmas, I've used it to explain to my students how the things we learn in mathematics just don't stay there. They are, of course, applicable, but they have merit applications in things like economics and in engineering. But then, they also have indirect and phenomenological applications in fields like cognitive science. Fields like cognition, you know. 

And I use myself and my practice of both the arts and mathematics to explain to them that you don't have to have a boundary in your life, and you don't have to bother about organizing every part of your life, because your life starts organizing itself at a point in time. Like, right now, I tell them what my life is… what I do, is producing, is managing, is structure. The structure comes from the mathematics. I use every structure I find in mathematics to build something around me. The structure of cognition… my research is in neuroscience. 

So, I use the structure and I apply it in cognition, and then expression. I use that structure/the cognition to write songs, and then I express it. So… and all these things are equally important that if they reveal themselves, sometimes one more than the other, you know? So… but they come together. They come together sometimes in a quick and dirty way (laughter) which is sometimes very nice, in a very nice way, where you can say, "Oh, this is the structure, this is cognition. Now I'm expressing myself.” 

Some other times you're trying to do something you think is really deep, that you need that expressive side of you to get it out. So, don't be afraid to tap into every part of who you are, you know? Don’t be afraid when they come out. Don't try to hide them or to bottle them up. Just let it be. Because, your life is kind of self-organized. (Laughter) And that's what I'm going to say. Yeah. 

Melinda: Yeah. And we each have our certain gifts and certain talents, and sometimes they're in very diverse areas. Like, such as music and mathematics, or whatever it might be. And they can inform each other in these really interesting ways. Right? 

Lawrence: Exactly. 

Melinda: I mean, it's a classic example, but they say that Einstein in part, you know, came up with the theory of relativity because of his musical training, right? And so, you know, it's important that we can embrace all these different parts of ourselves, even if society doesn't necessarily think they go together or whatever. So, I'm glad that, you know, that you pursued your musical interests, and mine too. You know, I had similar pressures where, “Well, I should do something practical with my life or…” You know. And I did… like you, I've kind of come to a place where I do both, rather than - 

Lawrence: What was your training in? 

Melinda: Yeah. So, I similarly…I majored in biopsychology. So, kind of cognitive science, in undergrad. And then I went on a little bit of a winding path. I got a Master's degree in religious studies, and then I did a Master's in performance studies at NYU in New York. And then I have my PhD in psychology, but focusing on creativity. 

Lawrence: Nice. 

Melinda: So, I teach creativity. And, you know… which is nice because it's easy for me to bring those things together. Right? 

Lawrence: Yes, yes.   

Melinda: Yeah. So, we're sort of getting to the end of our time. It's been so wonderful chatting with you. 

Lawrence: Really? You are already kicking me out? 

Melinda: I know! I know! Well, we can always do another one. 

Lawrence: Exactly. 

Melinda: But I'm curious… so, I usually like to end each episode with what I call a Creativity Pro Tip. So, something people can use, and try out on their own. So, I'm just wondering, you know, either on the musical side or the mathematics side, or somewhere in the middle, maybe… maybe something that you talk to your students about. What would you recommend for people who are maybe just wanting to explore more of their divergent interests? 

Lawrence: Yes. One… I’m going to start with which is more specific to people who want to do two things. And it's kind of similar to something I've said. I will say, “Don't be afraid. Do both of them. Or do the three of them.” And sometimes the fear comes from the fact that nobody has done it. You think nobody has done it. And the fear is not you doubting yourself; it’s just because you've not seen a template. 

Melinda: Yes. 

Lawrence: And you start worrying about things like, “Would I have enough time? What will people say?” And other things. You can be the template, right? 

Melinda: Absolutely. 

Lawrence: Yeah. You can be the template. You can be the first person. Try it. And that template may not be as easy as it sounds, but you’re good. You're up to the task. You know, be the template. Be the be the first person. Be the basis vector. 

Melinda: Yes! 

Lawrence: You can ask any mathematician really, who will understand and be the basis vector that other people are going to. They'll take you to compare with other people that they like, and they will form something from new, you know, out of you guys. 

Melinda: I love that because once one person has the courage to step forward, then it inspires other people too. 

Lawrence: Yeah. It inspires others. And then another thing I like to tell artists or mathematicians (and this works for everybody, I think)… I think it sounds very basic. Very, very basic. But it sounds basic, but it took me a while to come to this basic, very, very boring advice. Make a To Do List. Do that task one after the other. If you don't finish them, take them, add them to the next day's To Do List. Continue. Follow your To Do List. (Laughter) If you don't finish them, don't freak out. Continue the next day. 

Melinda: And that's what I do. I have a running… I have a little notebook that I keep, and I write all my to do things and you know, whichever ones I don't get to, then the next time, I just bring them forward. Yeah. 

Lawrence: Just be calm. Calmly transfer that to the next day. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah. And you know, I'm just, I'm planning a little music tour in Europe right now with some collaborators, and it can be very overwhelming. There's so many logistics and people to reach out to, and travel, and all this kind of stuff. 

Lawrence: I need a master class in that. 

Melinda: Yeah. Me too. I am just learning as I go along. 

Lawrence: I am serious. I need somebody to teach me how to do that. 

Melinda: Exactly. But that's what we've come to. You know, I was just talking with my collaborator, George, and I was like, “Okay. It’s overwhelming, but one thing at a time, just one. And then the next, and then the next, and that's how you get it done.” 

Lawrence: Yes.  

Melinda: Yeah. Well, it's been so wonderful to chat with you. I'm so glad that we connected. 

Lawrence: Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. 

Melinda: Yeah. And if people want to learn more about you, about your music, about your teaching, what are the best ways for them to find you? 

Lawrence: They can just go to my website. My website is udeigwe.net. 

Melinda: Perfect. 

Lawrence: Or they can follow me on Instagram. My Instagram is my full name: Lawrence Udeigwe. Or they can just Google me. (Laughter) 

Melinda: That's the way these days, right? Yeah. 

Lawrence: Yeah. I think Google has been kind enough to index me twice. Like if you, if you type Udeigwe, I think I'm the first person you see. If you type Lawrence Udeigwe, the same thing. So yeah, you'll find a lot of information about me there. 

Melinda: Okay. 

Lawrence: And of course, you can just go on Spotify and listen to my new album. It's called  Four Lemmas. 

Melinda: Definitely!  Yes. And is it available on all the major platforms? 

Lawrence: It’s available on everything. Yeah. And my stage name is just my last name. Just Udeigwe. 

Melinda: Perfect. And we'll put links to those sites in the show notes as well. 

Lawrence: Oh, that’ll be amazing! 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Lawrence: That will be amazing, Yeah. Yeah. 

Melinda: Yeah. Perfect. Well, thank you so much. 

Lawrence: Thank you. 

Melinda: Find and connect with us on YouTube and social media under Syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review. We're recording today at Record ATX Studios in Austin, with Lawrence joining us from New York. 

The podcast is produced in collaboration with Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios. Thanks so much for being with us, and see you next time.