Episode 105: Why Creativity Matters with Melinda Rothouse and Marcus McQuirter

This episode is a co-release, originally recorded and released in August of 2025 on  the podcast Intermission: Conversations with Theater People about anything but Theater, hosted by Marcus McQuirter. A previous guest on The Syncreate Podcast (Episode 73), Marcus is the Chair of the Drama Department at Austin Community College, where he teaches Voice, Acting, and Introduction to Theater. A storyteller at heart, he’s also a director, novelist, and podcaster. Our wide-ranging conversation touches on everything from the philosophy of art and arts education to religion, spirituality, and braving the creative wilderness. 

Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.

If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process in a variety of contexts, you might also like our conversations in Episode 83: Proprioception with C. Prudence Arceneaux, Episode 73: Theatre, Storytelling, and the Labor of Creativity with Marcus McQuirter, PhD, and Episode 28: The Spirit of Collaboration with Attorney & Musician Randy Langford.

At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you’re not sure how to get it off the ground, find us at syncreate.org. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching, including a monthly creativity coaching group, to help you bring your work to the world. You can find more information on our website, where you can also find all of our podcast episodes. Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review! We’d love to hear your feedback as well, so drop us a line at info@syncreate.org. 

Episode-specific hyperlinks: 

Marcus McQuirter, PhD Austin Community College Faculty Profile 

Austin Community College Drama Department Website

Intermission: Conversations with Theater People about anything but Theater 

Show / permanent hyperlinks: 

The Syncreate Podcast

Syncreate Website

Syncreate Instagram

Syncreate Facebook

Syncreate LinkedIn

Syncreate YouTube

Melinda Rothouse Website

Austin Writing Coach

Melinda Joy Music Website

Transcript

[Note: This episode is a co-release, originally recorded and released in August of 2025 on the podcast Intermission: Conversations with Theater People about Anything but Theater, hosted by Marcus McQuirter.]

Melinda: Creativity and community are absolutely vital in challenging times. Creativity is also consistently named as one of the top skills of the 21st century, particularly in the age of AI. Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology, and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to create. Our goal is to demystify the process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. We talk with visionaries and change makers, and everyday creatives working in a wide range of fields and media - from the arts to science, technology and business. We aim to illuminate the creative process from imagination to innovation and everything in between. 

I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their dreams and visions to life. At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, but you're not quite sure how to get it off the ground, please reach out to us at syncreate.org. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching to help you bring your work to the world, including a monthly coaching group. So check out the website for more details. 

Marcus: Well, welcome. You are here with me, here in Austin, Texas. This has been a spot for you. We’re at ACC, which has also been a spot for you. But you're onto some new adventures. New and exciting adventures. So, I want to talk about your podcast, your project there, and this fabulous plan you have for June. 

Melinda: Oh, yeah. Definitely. 

Marcus: So, what's going on? Give us the name and where we can listen. 

Melinda: Yeah. So my show is called The Syncreate Podcast: Empowering Creativity. And we look at kind of the intersections - my little happy triangle that I like to live in is - kind of creativity, psychology, and spirituality 

Marcus: Fantastic. 

Melinda: So, that's kind of the turf that I'm exploring in the show. Just released my 75th episode yesterday. 

Marcus: Congratulations. (Claps) I’ll clap. 

Melinda: Thank you. It's kind of a milestone. I was actually talking with a friend and colleague the other day who also has a podcast and I mentioned that milestone. She was like, “You know, we're in the very, very tiny, like, 1 % of people who actually release that many episodes…” You know? So it's something. 

Marcus: Everybody starts strong and then it kind of peters… (laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it does require a lot of effort and perseverance, you know, to put out a show every week, which I've been doing for the last year. 

Marcus: Every week? Oh man. You're my idol now. Every week. That’s amazing. 

Melinda: So, yeah. But we're really looking at, you know, what it means to be creative. And I think there's so many misconceptions out there about what creativity is or what it's not. Or who's creative or, you know, we believe everyone is creative fundamentally. And so, just trying to talk to the broadest array possible of people doing different, interesting things, in different fields and different media. 

And just kind of debunking some of the myths, you know, like we kind of talked about in our episode… this like the myth of the tortured artist… (laughter) or, you know, things like that. Or just, you know, so many people who are like, “Well, I'm not creative.” I'm like, “Well, let's look at that.” 

Marcus: Yeah. It’s always an interesting conversation. What have you… what have been like, some of the remarkable things that you've discovered? Because you're a long time creative as well. Which is - and so, it's a, it's an interesting conversation to say, “Okay. Well, where's your creativity? How does it fuel you? How do you fund it?” So to speak. 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's - I don't know, like, just talking to people in business, people in technology, people in fields that are not the arts, right? And just trying to learn how they see the creativity in their own work. Like, you know, one person I talked to on the show was, you know, a business leader and just talking about how during the COVID pandemic, for example, the most creative people in the whole operation were the people figuring out the supply chain issues. 

Marcus: Interesting. Yeah. 

Melinda: You know, not the advertising people, not the designers, but in order to solve complicated problems, of which we have many (laughter), you gotta get creative. Yeah. 

Marcus: Do you find that people, like… it's interesting you say that, no, well, I'm not creative. There's a lot of difference and a lot of deflection. Why is that? What have you discovered that… why are people so reluctant to claim creativity as one of their traits? 

Melinda: Yeah. I think one of the things that comes up so often is we often get told a story when we're young, at a formative age, by someone, a teacher, a parent or relative… you know, either they're like, “Well, maybe this isn't your skill set…”, you know? In some form or fashion. Right? Or we, you know, we take this on, we start comparing ourselves to other people. “I can't draw. I can't sing. I can't carry a note.” 

You know, and then maybe others of us do get praised. And maybe those are the ones who actually do go into some creative profession. “Oh. Maybe I do have some skill here. Maybe I do have some kind of talent”. Quote, unquote. Right? And so, it's just interesting how these early stories stay with us. And there's a wounding that happens, I think, for a lot of people. 

Marcus: Oh, that’s heavy. That’s heavy. That’s heavy. 

Melinda: Yeah. Or they're told they're not creative and they take that on. 

Marcus: They shut it down. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: And lock it away. 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. 

Marcus: Wow. I love… well, I don't love it, (laughter), but I think it's so appropriate that it's a wound. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: That never quite heals, and if it does, it's heavily scarred and hard to get at. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: You know, as arts educators, it's like one of the questions that we ask. It’s like, do we unlock what these students bring to us? And I had never really thought about it in that way. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I want to give a shout out to Charlotte who co-hosts every other episode with me. We do a kind of a short what we call a Creative Spark episode where we just kind of riff on a topic, and then give people something they can kind of run with and explore on their own. Of course, Charlotte was at ACC for a long time. She connected us. She was the head of the Creative Writing program for a long time. And we actually just did… it hasn't come out yet, but maybe by the time this show comes out, it'll be out… on healing the creative wound. 

Marcus: Oh, wow. 

Melinda: And how do we start to tell ourselves a different story, you know? That’s more up-to-date. 

Marcus: And what have you found like… you know, there's the creating of art, but in what other ways do you find that that people need creativity in their day to day lives? 

Melinda: Yeah. I mean, one example was just getting through the pandemic, especially people who are parents with families, trying to navigate from one day to the next. 

Marcus: And not knowing what's happening next. 

Melinda: Exactly. You've got to get creative, right? Because you’ve got to like, figure out the kids and school and work, and everyone's at home… and what are we doing? 

Melinda: Yeah. Routine is gone. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Exactly. But, you know, it shows up in everyday ways. And I really encourage people to think about like, how you cook a meal. That's creative. How you decorate your home. If you have a garden, you know, all of these things are creative. How we dress. 

Marcus: Yeah. There's so many different facets. And I'm curious about - because you've got background both in the T word (laughter), theater - and music, and the arts and education, but also in psychology and religion. What is the connection there and how does creativity… how do these questions about creativity, weave those different areas of your life together? 

Melinda: Yeah. So, you know, I guess I've always been interested in like, how the world works and what makes people tick, you know. The big existential questions. (Laughter) 

Marcus: Why? 

Melinda: Why are we here? What is this all for? You know, my sister, when she was a young kid, famously asked my dad, “Daddy, what if there was no air?” And he goes, “We’d all be dead.” (Laughter) 

Marcus: Question answered. 

Melinda: We were asking the big questions from a young age. So, you know, I've always been interested in these questions. And so, I studied Biopsychology in undergrad. Kind of like, proto neuroscience, when neuroscience was just starting to become a thing. And then I ended up through a, you know, strange series - my life has been anything but linear, my path - you know, a little fits and starts and dead ends, and this and that. And somehow, I got to a good place in the end. And then, you know, then I went over and ended up doing a master's in Religious Studies. That’s a whole story unto itself. 

But, you know, same kind of questions, though, just looking at it from a different lens. Like, looking at it from the lens of the brain and psychology, versus like, how do different wisdom traditions answer these questions of why are we here and what's it all for? And so forth. Then personally, I have explored a lot of different - because I was exposed to a lot of religious traditions through the study of religion. I kind of gravitated personally more toward the Eastern side of things and Buddhism and Taoism, and that kind of stuff, and eventually started, you know, practicing meditation regularly, got involved in a meditation community and discovered that there was this whole contemplative arts tradition that kind of came out of the Zen tradition of Japan. 

You know, you might think of like, calligraphy and flower arranging and Zen gardening, and so, kind of creativity as a mindfulness practice. And I was really struck with that because I also, as I mentioned to you before we started here, I trained in classical voice and opera for many, many years. I'm a singer, and, you know, that's a very particular form of training, and very useful in many ways in terms of learning how to project your voice, and so forth. But it's also very formalized, right? And so, sometimes with all that kind of like, rigorous classical training, can start to feel a little heavy or a little confining. 

And so, when I discovered contemplative arts, it was like a breath of fresh air. It was like a whole different approach to creativity. And for me, it was like returning back to play. Like kids, right? Kids are inherently creative. They're always playing. They're always making up stories. They're always like, you know, just imagining and acting out scenarios and skits, right? 

Marcus: The “Yes, and…” era of life. 

Melinda: The “Yes, and…” Exactly. And it's like, how do we lose that along the way? And actually, we know how we lose it. It's the education system, by the way. (Laughter) 

Marcus: By the way. 

Melinda: And there have been these longitudinal studies done in creativity studies, where they measure students on different creativity assessments just before they start the educational system. And then every five years until when they graduate from high school, and the creativity scores go down, down, down. 

Marcus: Gosh. 

Melinda: Because what are we teaching them? To be compliant citizens, not to exercise their creativity. 

Marcus: To fill in the blank, rather than color outside the lines and that sort of thing. 

Melinda: Exactly. Exactly. Because that's disruptive, you know. (Laughter) Which is why we love it. 

Marcus: Be disruptive, y’all. Be disruptive. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah. So, for me, it's like that return permission to play, you know, and just experiment. And it doesn't have to sound perfect. And it doesn't have to be a certain way. It's just like, “Okay. Let’s go to the blank canvas and let's experiment, and let's play with art materials and let's be silly, and see what happens.” 

Marcus: And play is like, central to how living creatures learn. 

Melinda: Yes, of course. 

Marcus: So, why do we take it out of the education… why is there only like, half hour recess? It should be like, four hours of recess with a bunch of different stuff you can do. 

Melinda: Exactly. I mean… and there's some models of education that follow more of that… like, kids follow their own interests… Montessori, and stuff like that. But mainstream education, not really that way. 

Marcus: Yeah. It’s to train you to work in a factory. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: On the flip side, to go back to what you were talking about earlier with some of the contemplative arts and how that leads to creative expression, calligraphy and flowers. I've always been interested… this kind of goes back to our conversation about how having rules and some formality does not necessarily, you know, reduce your creative output. Sometimes it gives it the shape. 

Melinda: Yeah. So there's another saying… I mean, there's all kinds of contradictions, right? (Laughter) And I feel like, well, you know, being able to sit with contradiction is kind of like - 

Marcus: That’s the point. 

Melinda: Yeah. The point. Right? So, yes, all these things are true. And creativity is born from constraints at the same time. So, it is good to have some limits, some constraints, some boundaries, because that gives us like, a sandbox to work within, right? Because sometimes, it can be overwhelming to just look at a blank page or a blank screen, or a blank canvas and go, “Whoa.” But if somebody gives you a prompt and says the first line of the story “Once upon a time…”, then that's a jumping off point. 

Marcus: Yeah. You have something to push against and some space to fill. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: I'm also… I mean, talking about religion… I mean, it's like, central to most worldview systems - is the question of creation. How were we created? Everything starts there. 

Melinda: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And different traditions have different answers to that, you know. Including like, in the South Asian, you know, tradition that started with the “Om”, right? And the universe was sung into existence, which I love. Yeah. 

Marcus: I'm always - I'm from the Baptist tradition - and that verse about, you know, “In the beginning, there was the word, and the word was God. And the word was with God.” And we were created by this sound. Like, this utterance and this voice… going back to voice, which I think is really… I think it's empowering. It's like, yeah, you have to… the act of creation is speaking something into being or making the sound that creates the clay that we then mold into whatever. 

Melinda: Yeah. And in another… like, from another lens, I see creativity as being almost akin to magic, because we first have to have an idea of something that doesn't exist yet. We have to imagine it. And then it's like, we literally have to invoke it. We have to bring it into being. We have to create something out of nothing. Which is amazing. I mean, that is magic, right? 

Marcus: It is. It’s awesome. We are magicians, damn it! (Laughter) I love that. I love that. Yeah. I think lend is the perfect… is that a metaphor or… language to talk about how these different aspects of human existence - art, religion, psychology - we're all getting at the same question, this existential question, why are we here, and what do we do with it?

Melinda: Yeah. And we were kind of talking about this earlier, too. It's like, we're living in strange and uncertain times. I think we can all agree on that, right? You know, and I was just having a conversation with a friend yesterday, and it's like, do you become an activist and do you go out and protest on the streets? Or if you're a creative, like, how do you channel your creativity into something positive and productive? And maybe, you know, something that speaks to people on a different level, like speaks to people's hearts, right? 

You know, maybe thus opening up a dialogue that wasn't there before. So, I think, you know, as artists, as creatives, we have an important role to play, and that might look different, you know, for each person. Of course, it's going to look different because we each have a different medium that we're working in. A different set of perspectives that we're working with, and that's going to translate into a different message. 

March: Do you think there's a central responsibility, or something that even if all these arts people are doing something different, is there something that we are… I don't know… what’s your philosophy of art? (Laughter) That’s the question. 

Melinda: I know. I love this… what is art?  

Marcus: What is art? 

Melinda: You know… I mean, I think… art is important for a lot of different reasons. It's important purely for self-expression and self understanding, self-awareness… like, just keeping a journal or having an art practice. It can be used for healing, for therapeutic purposes. I mean, the whole field of art therapy is about, how can we express whatever is going on, whatever trauma we might have in a creative way? Which some often allows us to access things that we don't have verbal or conscious access to. 

So, there's like, a whole therapeutic element and a kind of personal element. And then, you know, there's this whole idea of like, you know, the artists are the canary in the coal mine kind of thing. (Laughter) Like, you know… and sometimes, you know, because creatives are often inherently looking at things through a different lens or a different perspective than the mainstream. You know, maybe are able to see kind of historical trends as they're more emerging or maybe, often able to shape historical trends. 

You know, I was just listening to an episode, the most recent episode of the Ezra Klein podcast this morning. They were talking about Elon Musk and what makes him tick essentially. And, you know, there's a lot one could say at this moment in time, but he is a visionary. He has an idea of how he thinks things should be, and has a knack for bringing them into being. For better or for worse.  

Marcus: Yeah. A knack and 400 billion. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Let's see, let’s see. Yeah. And a buttload of money. (Laughter) You know… but like, artists are the visionaries, you know, and they… you know, think about… I mean, I know you're into like, science fiction, right? So, like, the science fiction writers who envision these possibilities often predicting or perhaps even leading us into scientific and technological advances before they actually come into being. 

Marcus: I love the term speculative fiction. 

Melinda: Yes. 

Marcus: Because, it’s like… it's what if, you know, let's speculate about what can be. Yeah, and artists have a certain ‘canary in the coal mine’, certain sensitivity to, I think, some of the nuances that happen in the larger world that we all… like, none of us can articulate. But it seems like, artists take up that mantle as like, “Yeah, but I'm going to articulate it.” (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah, yeah. And there's this personality trait called ‘openness to experience’. It's one of what they call The Big Five personality traits. And of the five… you know, there's like, introversion or extroversion, and agreeableness, and so forth. But openness to experience is the most highly correlated to creativity. 

Marcus: Oh, really? 

Melinda: And I think it has to do, going back to the Contemplative Arts piece, you know, it's being open to the senses and maybe, you know, subtle means of perception that maybe people just going about their daily lives often just ignore. Like, we can't pay attention to everything. But maybe artists pay attention to certain things in a different way. And therefore, perhaps they have access to, you know, certain perceptual abilities that maybe others… not that they don't have it… like, we talk a lot about intuition. And I think we all have intuition. Do we cultivate it? Do we pay attention to it? 

Marcus: Do we listen? 

Melinda: Do we actually follow through on it? 

Marcus: You know, in your research… this is very interesting. Have you found that that sensitivity to the nuances among people who are - we use this label artists, right - are there risks associated with it? 

Melinda: Sure, of course. So, you know, we have these mythologies and these cliches, but sometimes there's a kernel of truth to it, right? I mean, there have been studies done that creatives, you know, may in some cases be more prone to anxiety and/or depression… or the opposite, that people who've experienced great trauma, if they are able to figure out a way to channel that, can become extremely creative and they use their creativity as a way of working with, and working through, that trauma/those challenges. 

So, you know, there can be dark sides of it. And I don't know, there's this debate… I'm not sure exactly where I land on it. I don't know - I'm curious what you think - but this idea that the more intelligent people are, the more prone they can be to depression because they see how more of like, how things really are. Maybe the good, bad and the ugly? 

Marcus: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I definitely see the sensitivity element. I think when we talk about intelligence, especially as an educator and as an arts educator, you're like assessing these various intelligences. 

Melinda: Right. 

Marcus: And there are certain students who just who excel here and excel there. 

Melinda: For sure. 

Marcus: And I ask because, you know, we often as arts educators have people in our classes that are - we can cuss on this podcast (laughter) - that are going through some shit. 

Melinda: For sure. 

Marcus: Have been through some shit. And are trying to work through some shit. And I was kind of half joking, but half serious… I tell people in class, “This is theater. It’s not therapy.” 

Melinda: Right.

Marcus: And I encourage people, if you need therapy, you should get it from a qualified individual. I'm not that kind of doctor. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Right. Exactly. 

Marcus: But are there, from your research, are there ways to, you know, have your cake and eat it too? To safeguard that openness to experience and that sensitivity, while also protecting folks who might be vulnerable to, for lack of better term, over-stimulation of the negativity in the world? 

Melinda: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think we're all kind of like, trying to answer that for ourselves in this moment in history, right? And a lot of people are trying to stay away from the news or social media, and I think there is… you know, a lot of artists and creatives tend to be empaths, right? They’re sensitive to the feelings and emotions of other people and of what's happening in the world. And it can be easy to take that on. And there's a heaviness, you know, and sometimes, like, a helplessness or hopelessness. Like, what can I do? Like, I see these things going on, but what can I do? And of course, we can do something. 

We all have an influence in the world. And the more that we create, you know, the more opportunities that is to connect with other people in community, and so forth. But yeah, like, we can't take it all in. It's impossible, you know, and I think, having some boundaries - some energetic boundaries - are just, you know… how much news media are we going to indulge ourselves in? Or like, it's okay to step away from it. Right? 

Marcus: Yeah. You touched on a word I love - community. How does community play into all of this? Talking about debunking the tortured artist. The solo Hemingway. Drinking myself to death, alone. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah. Yes. The solitary genius. Yeah. I mean, you know, one thing that Charlotte and I talk about a lot is like, okay, any one person… this, I think, is a very Buddhist philosophy, too. It's like, we're all radically interconnected. None of us exists in a vacuum. You know, we all grew up in a family, in an environment, in a society, in a culture. We're influenced by all of that. You know, we're influenced by the people we interact with and the information we interact with on a daily basis. And it's part of how we get ideas. You know, the notion of creativity is based on associative thinking and making connections between seemingly unrelated things, or putting ideas that are out there together in a new way, and that requires input from the outside. 

And yes, there are some cases, like writing being a primary example where, you know, we often do have to work alone. There are plenty of creative activities - of course, theater, music - where we're most often, you know, engaging with other people in a community of sorts, whether it's a stage production or a band or whatever it might be. And Charlotte and I really believe that community is absolutely essential to creativity and that you gotta go out there and find your people. I had Amanda Johnston, the Texas poet laureate on the show. 

Marcus: Shout out. 

Melinda: Yeah. She was amazing. And she had the Pro Tip, you know, that I asked her… she was like, “Go find your people.” You know, go to a reading, go to a gallery, go to whatever it is. Like, go find your people and connect with them. 

Marcus: I love that. 

Melinda: And that is so important. 

Marcus: Yeah. The input. And it makes me think about this other - debunking the myth of the artist, right? In your research, what have you found around this notion of innovation, this idea that, I think, is still part of (at least) Western cultures, that in order to be an artist, in order to be creative, you have to invent something brand new, as opposed to what you were just talking about. This process of association and putting these things (these disparate things) together. 

Melinda: Yeah. And again, you know, there's all these different contradictions and lenses. But on the one hand, there's nothing new under the sun. Everything's already been said, done, thought, et cetera. And on the other hand, you know, we're constantly coming up with new ways of doing things and improving upon the way things have been done in the past. And in - you know, my PhD work was on creativity and collaboration among teams and organizations. 

And, you know, in that context… you know, Charlotte and I also talk a lot about synergy, the synergy of co-creation… like, when you bring two or three or four or five, or however many minds together, you know… I always get this wrong, (laughter) but, “The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.” Right? 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. 

Melinda: You just have, you know, the dialogue and the conversation and the ideation is just that much richer. And the more diverse set of people and backgrounds and ideas you bring together, the broader the palette of possibilities, which is why I think what's happening, like, with DEI right now, for example, is really, really dangerous, because we lose creative ideation. If we have just a bunch of people in a room that are all the same, they're just going to come up with the same shit. 

Marcus: Same idea. (Laughter) 

Melinda: You know, like, we’ve got to bring different people together. And again, the complex problems that we're trying to address as a society, as a nation, you know, we need the broadest possible set of perspectives, you know, to figure this stuff out. 

Marcus: Yeah. And it's like, you should keep all those DEI programs and everything, and pour in a tincture of conflict resolution so that we can take advantage of all those different perspectives without it derailing us. 

Melinda: And that's the flip side. So, in terms of creative collaboration, there's sort of like, a healthy level of disagreement, but there has to be trust. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Melinda: And there has to be psychological safety. In other words, people have to feel that they can take a risk and share an idea that may not be popular or may not be… you know, it’s easy to shoot it down: “Well, that's impossible. We can't do that.” But we also know that if you shoot down those ideas too soon, you might end up ignoring the one thing that would actually be the best solution. 

Marcus: You don’t know what it’s gonna grow into. 

Melinda: Yeah. So there's this kind of healthy balance of diversity of views and opinions where, you know, a little friction is okay because, you know, healthy debate… let's say, if people don't feel safe, then they're not going to share. And sometimes the ones who are holding back have the best ideas. 

Marcus: It’s like oh! I can't catalog the number of times that at end of class, “Okay, anybody have questions? Have anything else to say? No, okay, we're done.” Then somebody comes up, like, “Hey, what about this?” Like, why didn't you say that out loud?! 

Melinda: I know! it's that person sitting in the back, you know, who doesn't necessarily speak up. Who’s not trying to like, you know, take up all the attention in the room. Sometimes they have the best idea. 

Marcus: Yeah. You gotta listen to those folks. Yeah. I mean, gosh! My brain is going everywhere. (Laughter) I mean, friction and creativity makes me think about the vocal folds rubbing together to get that “Om”. 

Melinda: Yes. Yes. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And plucking things out of mid-air. I love that. I love that. So, you you dabble in so much. (Laughter) It's lovely. It's lovely. How do your different creative outlets… how are they in conversation with one another? Really just getting back to this idea of what's your philosophy of art? You do music and you write, and you do podcasts. I don't know what else you do, but are those in conversation with one another? 

Melinda: Yeah. Always. And I think they inform and enrich each other. You know, I was at a creativity conference a couple of years ago, and there were a couple of people presenting on this topic of creative polymathy, which is sort of like the idea of like, a polyglot is someone who knows many languages… so, a polymath is somebody who has interests and some kind of abilities across different domains or areas. And I was like, “Oh! That’s me.” You know, now I can call myself a creative polymath instead of like, a jack of all trades and master of none. (Laughter) Right? There's that other side of it. Exactly. 

But like, I've always… you know, for me, the kind of personality that I have - and I think this is common to a lot of creatives, I think probably yourself as well - is that I get bored doing the same thing all the time. I like having different projects in the works and they do inform each other. You know, an example I love to use is, you know, they say that Einstein, he was musical, he played piano, he was a musician as well. And it was through music that he actually - like, an analogy with music and physics came up with the idea of relativity. Right? 

So, this idea they talk about in Creativity Studies, like, cross domain, you know, competence or whatever. It’s like, you might have an idea. You might know something about a more technical field and then but you're working in an artistic medium and somehow they inform each other, because back to that associative thinking, it's also connected to metaphor and analogy. You know, “Oh, this is kind of like that. And what if we applied it in that context? What might happen?” 

Marcus: Oh, I love that. 

Melinda: You know, so my personal mantra is like, “I can do everything, just not all at once.” (Laughter) And then we get into time management and project management, you know. 

Marcus: Oh, yes! It’s the big bad evil guys. (Laughter) But if you master them… I mean, who masters time? No one's a master of it. But if you can get good at it, then I think it… I found that it just feeds your creativity. 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And that looks different for different people. You know, with my students that I work with… it’s like, you know, our clients. It's like there's a lot of tools out there that one could use. And I'm not going to tell you which tools to use, because everyone has their own creative process. And what works for one person may not work for another. You know, some people are more visual learners and some people are more, you know, linear and, you know… so, you got to find what works for you. But then, you know, part of, I think, the task is understanding your own creative process and then making it work for you. 

So, some people like to block time out of their calendar just for a specific project or whatever. And then, you know, we do know in the brain, like, neurobiologically, that shifting between tasks is very taxing. Which is why multitasking doesn't work. Much better to chunk out your time and go like, “Well, for this next four hours, I'm going to be working on this project, then I'm going to take a break, I'm going to transition, I'm going to go over here and work on this thing. Or maybe today I'm working on this, tomorrow I'm working on that.” I mean, how does that show up for you between theater and writing and…? 

Marcus: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because they call it my “psychological commute.” 

Melinda: Yes. (Laughter) 

Marcus: It just takes time. If you live in Austin, you know it's going to take you time. 

Melinda: Exactly. 

Marcus: You got to block out at least 30 minutes, at least, if not an hour, for everything. Yeah, and I work best like that. I had the benefit… my dad is really big into time management, like, back in the 80s and 90s. And I can remember like, in sixth or seventh grade, him sitting me down and he said, “Okay, there's 168 hours in a week. You're going to be sleeping for half of that. What are you going to do with the rest of it?” And he had the system where he divided up and it's like, personal time, work or school, and then family or community. And that's where you split your time, and then you just start breaking it down. And I found that I still do this. 

My wife makes fun of me. Spreadsheets. And I tell my students I teach directing classes like, “If you want to learn how to direct, learn Excel.” (Laughter) Because a lot of it's going to be there. And if you can just say, “Okay, for this hour…” and then suddenly I feel free. I know that for an hour I don't have to do shit, except create this thing right here. And then when it's done, “Okay. We’ll move on to something else.” 

Melinda: Yeah, because sometimes if you have so many projects going on, so many tasks on the to do list, it's overwhelming just to even know where to start. 

Marcus: That’s what it it is. 

Melinda: And sometimes like, just sit down and start something, you know. Rather than freaking out about all the things you have to do. 

Marcus: Oh, man. Yeah. That freaking out is debilitating. 

Melinda: It’s paralyzing. 

Marcus: And I see this with students all the time. “I can't do all of this, so I'll do none of it.” 

Melinda: Yeah. So Charlotte and I, in our book and on the podcast, we talk about, you know, incremental progress and like, you know, breaking things down, just as you're saying, into, you know, tasks and milestones and larger goals. And just like, one day at a time, baby steps. You know, just do a thing - whatever it is - do it for 10 minutes a day. Build up to 20, build up to 30. And if you do it on a regular basis, that's going to get you further than just one mad creative burst and then nothing. 

Marcus: Yeah, I mean, it's… I call it washing the elephant because I don't want to eat elephant. (Laughter) Just one spot at a time, and then take the time to acknowledge that work and honor that five minutes. It's important, it's not just a throwaway. You did that. Claim it. So sorry dog won’t wag his own tail. Take that moment. 

Melinda: Yes. Yeah. And I think the flip side of it that's also really important is like, fallow time is important to like… time to do nothing, time to rest, time to rejuvenate. And you know, I tend to be one of those people where, for whatever deep psychological reasons, I feel like I have to be productive all the time and I have to really like, give myself permission to do nothing. And that's why part of reason I enjoy travel, because when I'm traveling, like, I'm not at home feeling like, “Okay, there's something I should be doing.” (Laughter) Like, I get to just chill. 

But if you really stop and think about it… and that's another reason why I like mindfulness, because like, when we are meditating or practicing mindfulness, it's like a timeout. It's a time out where we can allow our brains to catch up, because we are so constantly overstimulated. And I don't think our brains have time to process all the information because the speed and pace of things just keeps increasing. But also, like, when you're meditating, you're not doing anything else. So, in Buddhist terms, you're not creating any new karma for that 10 minutes or whatever it is. Like, you’re not causing any harm. You're not doing anything that could have negative ripple effects. And in our capitalist society, like doing nothing is a radical act. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's deep. (Laughter) It's so deep. It's so deep. I'm terrible at this. I'm like, go, go, go, go. I'm the worst at it. I can remember - shout out to Zia Fox, who's a fantastic sound designer and composer - and she works in IT. They work in IT. And just a reminder, know, every once in a while, shut your computer off. Don't just close the laptop. Actually shut it down. And you'll notice that when you boot it back up, it's not quite as sluggish. 

Melinda: It works better. 

Marcus: It works better. Like, “Damn it, Zia.” I need to shut down. I just have this… I think it's the anxiety. I'm curious, for you, where does that pressure to be productive come from? Is it like a seed that was planted long ago? Or is it like constantly coming at you from different sources? 

Melinda: Well, I think it's a little of both. You know, I think in my family growing up, one's value or worth was placed in what one accomplished. Or even, you know, love and praise was given according to what you accomplished, rather than just your existence. 

Marcus: The fact that you are. 

Melinda: Right. So, I think that's maybe fairly common. And then I… but I am also… it's not only that. And of course, I've spent many years in therapy working with that and other things. But I think there is an internal drive. You know, for whatever reason, I've always had a very active imagination and there was a lot I wanted to accomplish in the world. I wanted to make a mark. I wanted to leave some kind of legacy. You know, speaking of your other podcast, A Burden of Legacy. You know, have some kind of positive impact in the world. And so - 

Marcus: How do you measure that? 

Melinda: Yeah. Well, I don't have kids. My creative work is my legacy, you know. And my grandmother on my dad's side was a teacher. She taught high school government for her whole career. She actually went to law school way back in the day. New York City. Passed the bar exam, never practiced law. Because women didn't do that. I mean, this was like, back in the 30s or so. 

Marcus: Wow. Is that part of your engine? Pushing you forward. 

Melinda: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. But she was a teacher, high school teacher. And I wrote an article about her one time called A Teaching Legacy. I wish I could dig it up. I don't even know if I still have it. But, you know, she would have former students walk up to her in the grocery store decades later and go, “Wow. Mrs. Rothouse! Like, I remember you and I remember your class.” She left, you know, a positive mark on these students, like, all these decades later. 

Marcus: God, that’s beautiful. 

Melinda: It's like, I want to do that. You know. 

Marcus: Teaching is the most important job in the world. 

Melinda: It is. 

Marcus: Teaching and parenting is like... because if we get those wrong... (laughter) But if we get it right... god, that’s beautiful. 

Melinda: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, the teaching, the books, the music, the podcasts… like, whatever I can put out there into the world at this time that feels like, positive and constructive and hopeful. That's what I want to do. 

Marcus: Do you feel like… it's a weird question. Do you feel like there's a point where you feel like, “Okay, I've done it?” (Laughter) 

Melinda: It's never… it's not over until it's over, right? 

Marcus: It’s never over. 

Melinda: I mean, I think… you know, sometimes I've like fantasized about, “Whoa. Hey. One day, I'll retire.” And I'm like, but what does that even mean? Because I'm always gonna be creating. 

Marcus: Do you just turn the switch off? 

Melinda: Yeah. I mean, like, what does that even mean to a creative? Because I think when we stop creating, that's it. 

Marcus: You’re done. 

Melinda: Like, that's… yeah. Right. And I'm never going to stop creating. So… and I already work for myself for the most part. (Laughter) I mean, I teach for a university, but most of my other activities are kind of like, you know, I'm an entrepreneur and whatever. And so, I'm never going to stop doing that. 

Marcus: And you've got meditation to be able to, you know, manage the flow. Do you still get… even with your meditation practice, do you still get the… I talk to a lot of people who are like, “As soon as I lay down to go to bed, (laughter) the ideas and the creativity just starts, and you just sit there awake three hours laying in bed.” 

Melinda: Yeah. Well, I have dealt with insomnia most of my life, so I've found some workarounds with that, that helped me get to sleep in the form of just relaxants of one form or another. So, that actually has been tremendously helpful because - this is like a whole other conversation - but we know sleep is so important for our brains and getting enough rest and enough sleep. And so, you know, if you're up half the night with ideas or just insomnia, then, you know, your body doesn't have a chance to repair itself. Your brain doesn't have a chance to rest. So, like, I think it's important to sleep. And I finally, after, you know, so many years of trying to figure that out, I found some things that work well for me, including meditation. 

Like, when I have those moments when I can't sleep, I'll, you know, just practice some deep breathing or even practice some kind of mantra or just something where your mind has to focus on something. So, it's not just racing, but… and at the same time, I was just talking with a friend about this yesterday. I think we're going to do a podcast about it. I've been receiving a lot of my musical ideas either when I'm falling asleep in a dream or first thing when I wake up. And so then the thing is, like, “Do I get up to record this or do I try to, like, just go to sleep?” (Laughter) And I’ve got the phone, I’ve got my voice memos. I was like, “Okay. Get up, record the thing. That way, I won't forget it and then try to go back to sleep.” 

Marcus: Why do you think in those moments all this stuff is flooding in? 

Melinda: Yeah. Because I think they - I can never get this word right either - but this hypnagogic or hypnagogic state, which is kind of that between awake and resting. And I think it's when you can almost track this moment, when the brain starts to move from linear thought mode to this more creative right brain, more ideational, as you're moving into sleep and kind of dream world. There's a shift that happens, and I think it's opening up more to the unconscious as the executive mind is kind of powering down. And that's, you know, a very receptive mode. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. There's an acting textbook - which is like, an oxymoron - but there's the acting textbook you used to use and like, the first chapter’s talking about the creative state and getting to the creative state. And it's really interesting, you know, in a field like performance, right? Because you've got to get to that relaxed openness to listen to your scene partner, to feel the music, to do whatever, and get into that “zone”. And you have to hold that in one hand and also remember your lines. (Laughter) It’s this weird bouncing point. Like, “Let’s stand the penny on the edge. No, let's stand the dime on the edge.” (Laughter) To be in that flux state. 

Melinda: Yeah. That's so true. The ability - Charlotte and I talk a lot about this - you know, to move back and forth between those two modes of thinking. We talk about convergent/divergent thinking. Divergent is the ideational. We're kind of all over the place. Anything's possible. And then the convergent is the more linear/get it done, like, X, Y, Z kind of thinking. And in order to bring any creative idea to fruition, you actually need both. It's not either/or. So, it’s like, how do you find that dime edge? Right? And I think some people have that maybe more natural facility of being able to move back and forth. 

But that's something we can learn. It's something we can train ourselves to do. You hear people say, like, “I'm a really creative, right brain person”… or, “I'm a linear person. I'm not really creative.” It's like, no, we all have both of those capacities. (Laughter) We have to have them in order to exist. But like, how do we become conscious of that, and know when and where and how - 

Marcus: - how to lean - 

Melinda: - to move back and forth? 

Marcus: Yeah. Cause you're a human being. (Laughter) You're a whole human being. 

Melinda: Yeah. I mean, we're kind of amazing that way, really. You know? 

Marcus: Yeah. In terms of teaching how these practices kind of influenced… and what kind of courses are you teaching… writing courses or..? 

Melinda: Yeah. So, actually, right now, I am adjunct faculty at Saybrook University, which is based in California. It's where I did my PhD. And it's a graduate program in Humanistic Psychology. And there is a specialization within that in creativity, innovation and leadership. So I teach courses in that topic. Intro to sort of creativity, innovation, leadership, essentially. I teach a course that I developed on creativity and individuation. So, this Jungian idea. We’ve kind of been touching on it - the journey to wholeness across the lifetime, and how we can use creativity with intention to make meaning of our experiences, and to develop and grow as human beings. 

And then, right now, I'm teaching a more foundational psychology course that's more of like a survey of Humanistic Psychology. So… but I supervise students on their theses and dissertations. And, you know, writing a dissertation is a huge creative project. 

Marcus: It's a big elephant. (Laughter) 

Melinda: And it's a very particular kind of exercise and you have to jump through a lot of different hoops, and move through a lot of different steps, in a very particular way, over a long period of time to get it done. Like, it is a complex project. And so, the spreadsheets, (laughter) the organization, the research skills, you know… and then there's the emotional piece of it, which we don't talk about as much. But, you know, I think in any good creative project, you might start out with this great idea and you're super inspired and you start working on it and you get to a certain place, and then almost inevitably, I think, you fall into the abyss. And you go, “What the hell am I doing? (Laughter) Why am I doing it? Why did I think this was a good idea?” 

Marcus: The artist cycle.  

Melinda: You know? 

Marcus: “This is brilliant. Why am I doing this? God, this is terrible! What am I doing? I'm almost done!” 

Melinda: Right! And then that's part of the process, and we have to understand that that's actually part of the… I wrote an academic article called “The Journey Through The Creative Wilderness”. And it is a journey through the wilderness, and we don't know how it's going to end, and there is no map, you know? Each creative project is a whole world and journey unto itself. But if we can begin to recognize that that is part of the process, and that not that there's something wrong with us or that our project sucks or that we're not equipped to do it. 

We might not be equipped to do it in that moment. And sometimes, we have to learn our way through a project, right? But then, if we can kind of just like, go with that, kind of surrender to it, kind of embrace it, then ultimately, we can come back out of that abyss with an even better outcome than we could have possibly imagined going into it. 

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. The point of it is change. The point of it is - 

Melinda: - transformation. 

Marcus: - transformation. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: But I think you're right. I think if we can… if we can post a sign at the beginning, at the edge of the woods. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yes! It's like, “Danger. Proceed with caution, but proceed. Don’t stop.” Yeah. 

Marcus: “But proceed. Don’t stop.” There are moments that are going to suck. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: That's okay. Push through it. 

Melinda: Yeah. Exactly. And that's when you need your people.  

Marcus: That's when you need your people.

Melinda: That's when you need your community, your mentors, your colleagues, your friends. 

Marcus: Someone to bring you soup and a sandwich. 

Melinda: Exactly. Yeah. Because back to that idea of like, we're not… none of us is operating in a vacuum, you know. Just anything that we're doing, anything we're bringing into being is a result of all of these different causes and conditions. You know, just like we sit down to a meal, where did the food come from? Who grew it? Who prepared it? The sunlight, the rain, all the things. Same true with our creative work. You know. So, we need our communities. 

Marcus: To keep creating. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: All right. Let's see. See. An hour is gone. 

Melinda: Yeah. 

Marcus: We didn't even realize it. It's like… well, thank you so much for joining. 

Melinda: Yeah. Such a pleasure. Thank you. I feel like this conversation has gone so many places. I love it. 

Marcus: Truly inspiring. I'm gonna go and we're gonna start a new conservatory for creative people. 

Melinda: Yes! Let’s do it. 

Marcus: We're gonna change the education system and make sure that we feed the hungry, as it were. 

Melinda: Yes. So important. 

Marcus: Thank you for joining me.  

Melinda: Find and connect with us on YouTube and social media under @syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review. We'd also love to hear from you, what you love about the show, what you'd like to see more of and potential guests. So please reach out to us at info@syncreate.org. The podcast is produced in collaboration with Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios. Thanks so much for being with us and see you next time.