Episode 99: Working with Self-Doubt in Our Creativity with Dreux Carpenter, MFA

How do we work with self-doubt and mental health in our creative process? Dreux Carpenter is a multi creative and communications professional; he's a graphic designer, writer, and offers proofreading and editing services. He holds both Masters and MFA degrees in Writing and Consciousness, one from the New College of California and the other from the California Institute of Integral Studies. He served on the board of the Writers’ League of Texas for several years, and he’s married to Syncreate Co-Founder, co-author, and podcast co-host Charlotte Gullick. In this episode, Dreux opens up about his own experiences of self doubt in his creative journey, as strategies he uses to work with it and around it.

For our Creativity Pro-Tip, if you’re feeling stuck with a creative project or struggling with self-doubt, try experimenting with a completely new medium or way of doing things. This can short-circuit the inner critic, allow you to be a beginner, and maybe offer new insights into your original project. 

Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.

If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process in a variety of contexts, you might also like our conversations in Episode 83: Proprioception with C. Prudence Arceneaux, Episode 93: Creativity and Collaboration in Internal Family Systems (IFS) Work with Alisa Carr, and Episode 97: The Art of Jewelry Design with Geoffrey Good. 

At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you’re not sure how to get it off the ground, find us at syncreate.org. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching, including a monthly creativity coaching group, to help you bring your work to the world. You can find more information on our website, where you can also find all of our podcast episodes. Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review! We’d love to hear your feedback as well, so drop us a line at info@syncreate.org. 

Episode-specific hyperlinks: 

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Transcript

Melinda: Creativity and community are absolutely vital in challenging times. Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to create. Our goal is to demystify the process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. We talk with visionaries and change makers, and everyday creatives working in a wide range of fields and media - from the arts to science, technology and business. 

We aim to illuminate the creative process, from imagination to innovation and everything in between. I'm Melinda Rothouse and I help individuals and organizations bring their dreams and visions to life. At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. So, if you have an idea for a project or a new venture, anything from a creative work to an entrepreneurial idea, and you're not quite sure how to get it off the ground, find us at syncreate.org. 

Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your goals. And the book is also now available in audiobook format, narrated by Charlotte and me, the co-author’s. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching to help bring your work to the world, including one-on-one coaching and a monthly creativity coaching group that meets on the fourth Sunday of each month. So, check out the website for more details. We'd love to hear from you as well. Love to hear your feedback on the show. If you have ideas for topics or guests you'd like us to cover, drop us a line at info@syncreate.org. 

So, my special guest today is Dreux Carpenter. He's a multi creative and communications professional. He's a graphic designer, writer and he also offers proofreading and editing services. He holds both Masters and MFA degrees in Writing and Consciousness, one from the New College of California and the other from the California Institute of Integral Studies. He served on the board of the Writers’ League of Texas for several years. And he also happens to be married to Charlotte Gullick, my Syncreate business partner, co-founder, co-author of the book and podcast co-host for our Creative Spark Series. 

So, Dreux designed our Syncreate logo (which you see in the background here) of the show, as well as our book cover and illustrations, and he was instrumental in the development of Syncreate as a whole (which you'll hear a little more about during the episode), along with John Best. So, delighted to have Dreux on the show today. Dreux, welcome! It's so wonderful to finally have you on the show as a guest. 

Dreux: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for asking me. It's good to be on your show. I've seen several episodes, and it’s cool. 

Melinda: Yeah. Well, you know, you've been so instrumental in our Syncreate process over the years. We collaborated initially in developing all the ideas that eventually went into the book. And you've designed, you know, our logo, the book cover, the illustrations. You were a wonderful sounding board with the book in general. So, and you've just, you know, you've always kind of been there with Charlotte, you know, kind of behind the scenes of the podcast as well. So, yeah. 

Dreux: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the whole Syncreate thing has been really cool - just encouraging people to get in touch with their creativity. It's been fun to be part of the process. 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. So, I've been wanting to have you on the show for a long time, but here we are. So, I'm glad that we're making this happen now. And, I love that you kind of propose - we were talking about, “Well, like, what could we talk about today?” So many things, right? You're a multi creative, and you do all kinds of cool stuff, but you kind of brought up the idea of self-doubt and mental health in relation to creativity, which I think is such an important topic that, you know, maybe doesn't get enough attention. 

Dreux: Yeah. Well, I think it's - self-doubt has ruled my creative process, my creative output, or has limited it and made it a painful process for me. And so, yeah. It's funny, I have this creative urge, and then when it comes time to create, I freeze, you know, and so then, I get discouraged. I say, “Okay. Forget this. I don't need to create anything anymore.” I quit, but then the urge comes back and I'm like, “Let me try”. And so, it's then, you know, the mind gets into patterns, right? And I think over the years I've just scared myself out of creating, you know. The beginning of the process is too frightening because there's too much that could go wrong, be misinterpreted, or you could be judged for not being as good as people think you should be. 

Or, so, I mean, all of these questions keep running through my mind, and what it ends up doing is keeping me from doing anything. So, yeah, self-doubt. And I mean, ironically, I've, like you said, I've been working, doing the Syncreate stuff, I've been part of this encouraging people to pursue their creativity and, I mean, I've talked to friends who are stuck, and I’ve helped talk them through the process, and I can explain different methodologies. But when it comes to me, I am still managing to just sort of freeze in the moment. And, yeah, it's very interesting to observe myself, (laughter) of being unable to follow my own good advice. 

Melinda: Yeah. Right. It's kind of like that phrase, “Physician, heal thyself.” Right. It's so much easier sometimes to, like, have perspective on other people's situations. But I really appreciate your, you know, openness and vulnerability and sharing that, because I think it's something that so many people can actually relate with, but we just don't necessarily talk about it that much. I mean, sometimes we talk about the inner critic and things like that, but like, you know, self-doubt, we all deal with it, to some extent. And I think it's a very real aspect of any creative process. It's almost inevitable that that's going to come into the equation. 

Dreux: I agree. I mean, not knowing, you know, that uncertainty is, I mean, it's the ground for once you start. Because if you were certain at the beginning, there's no need to pursue the thing. But to be - I think there's something that often people - and I think, you know with, we understand neurodivergence much better now than we did when I was 18, 20, in college studying, studying art. And we understand mental health, you know, depression, anxiety, all of these things where the mind in trying to keep itself safe is actually harming itself from growth. 

Melinda: Yes. 

Dreux: And, so, one thing I've been doing, like, recently, is in an attempt to get ahead of that self-doubt and that judgment of, “I'm not where I should be. I'm not producing the quality that I should…”, I decided, one thing, to try to basically take it back to the fundamentals. And by that, I mean, like with kids, all they do is create because they're just making. Making sense and making order and making - or making noise and making chaos. But it's this expression. 

And so, recently I've been just finding materials. There's an old bag of concrete in the garage that I have. (Laughter) A bag of sand and bamboo running rampant. And so, I've cut down some bamboo and I'm, you know, I'm just like, “I have no idea what I'm doing.” I'm doing something as I'm doing it. And I'm trying to allow myself not to have a plan. 

You know, not to… you know, I'm not reading instructions on how to mix concrete. (Laughter) I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm having discovery. So, trying to, like, get back to the origins of wonder, where you don't know anything, and all your mind is doing/is going, “What if? What if I do this? Or what if I do that?” And when the stakes are low, like, who cares if I wasted an entire bag of concrete? (Laughter) You know, I make this thing, and it crumbles… who cares? You know. But I've learned or I've enjoyed at the very least. 

Melinda: Exactly. And no, I think like, so many things about what you just said… like, wonder is such an important part of the creative process. I was just talking about this with a guest in another episode recently and, you know, having that childlike curiosity and openness and exploration and, you know, somehow as we get older and older, that seems to seep away for a variety of reasons. But also, this like, experimentation. Like, you know, trying out a completely different medium or working with materials you've never worked with before. And like, that permission to just be a beginner and not know. 

Dreux: Well, there's a word that I've been using in my mind lately. ‘Ignorance’. You know, it has this very negative connotation. But being a language person, too… I mean, the basic meaning of the word ignorance is just lack of knowledge. You know, I was thinking today… I was like, you know, water does not judge a glass for being empty. You fill the glass; it's simply a state. And so, if we don't know anything, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Any new information we get, any new knowledge that we acquire is, you know, it's filling the glass. And so, I think, yeah, like kids, and when babies are born, everything is brand new. There's no context. They have to make meaning. 

I think that's part of what I'm trying to do with myself, is sort of decontextualize myself from myself, and just engage with materials. And just, you know… I don't know, being ignorant and allowing myself to be filled. You know, because, I mean, the corollary of like, ignorance is lack of knowledge, innocence is lack of experience. You know, there's no judgment there. It's simply, you know, two states and the space between them. 

Melinda: Exactly. And actually, from a Buddhist point of view, you know, the not knowing is really important. Like, you know, there's that phrase from Suzuki Roshi, like “In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few.” And that speaks to like, how we narrow and specialize and focus in our careers or whatever. But then we're also cutting ourselves off from a lot of possibilities. There's also a Buddhist quote that “You can't fill a glass that's already full.” If you think you know everything, then it's hard to bring anything else in. 

Dreux: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I'm trying to embrace not knowing. Being comfortable with not knowing. And I think for… like, growing up, I had three brothers and, you know, all of us were born within five, six years, so we were real close in age, which means there's competition for attention. You know, there's competition for praise. There's, you know, how do I compare to my older brother? And, you know, you're three years younger than this brother, and he's an amazing athlete… and you're three years younger. Of course he's better. 

So… but I realize with one of my habits with growing up with three brothers who had incredible gifts in various different directions, I was constantly trying to find something that no one else was doing. So, I wouldn’t compete. But then what that means is, I'm making my choices based on… I'm limiting myself because I don't want that competition, that scrutiny, that judgment, that comparison. Because I think that's where creativity gets stifled, which I think happened to me. 

So, yeah, that judgment, expecting judgment from others, and judging others, you know. I mean, I've had my periods of… there's a comfort in avoiding one's own art until critiquing the art of writing. (Laughter) It’s a very comfortable space to go up to a painting and go, “Oh, man, that sucks. I could do better.” Well, I'm sure maybe you could, but you haven't. Or you don't. But I think in my judging others, I imagine that judgment turned on me, you know, and that's another thing that kept me frozen, is “Well, I'm making all these snide comments about other people in their sincere endeavors. And yet, I'm afraid to even present anything to someone.”  Because maybe they’ll think bad of me. Very fragile. 

Melinda: Well, I mean, I know you do many creative things. You're a graphic designer, you're a writer, among many other things. I know you were on the board of the Writers’ League of Texas, and in that capacity, you served as a, I guess a judge, you could say, for different writing contests and things like that. So, like, I don't know, what's a piece of advice that you might have given to someone else struggling with these things that maybe you could use for yourself now? 

Dreux: Ahh. That's a good question. I think, I mean, if there are people who… like I said, I have this creative urge, but I keep running from it, but it keeps calling me back. (Laughter) And, so I pay attention to it the right way in order to… and so, if there are people who I mean, obviously, we're all creative, we're all creators. But there are some of us who want to express our experience on the planet and make a physical artifact of this. Or a song or something that says, “This is my connection to my time on this planet.” 

And I think for those who keep being thwarted by themselves, you need to find a way to exist out of your own context, like I said. And it's taken years. I mean, I've been in therapy. I've been, you know, I've done this, I've done that. And it's only recently that I'm kind of like, sort of coming to this calmer place within me, whatever that means. Without the expectation that… I mean, because also, I'm not as young as I used to be. (Laughter) 

Melinda: None of us are. 

Dreux: Yeah. Right. You know. You do the calculation. What body of work do I leave behind? And, you know, if I've… if I could have spent the last 20, 30 years failing and building or, you know, not success and failure, but trial and error, just learning. You know, embracing the holes in my knowledge. But as they build to other things, you know, then there would be less pressure now to actually - 

But I would say, “Look, you want to create and you've had these struggles in the past, do it for yourself. Find a space, find a place and don't know. Embrace the ignorance and step into the ignorance.” You know, I think that is kind of, to me, that's the greatest thing. That sense of wonder of, “Wow. This is something I know nothing about. So, everything is this brand new something.” 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you mentioned the word failure, which I think sometimes we're, like, afraid to say that word out loud or whatever… but, you know, I just came from this Creativity Conference in Oregon and in the context of Creativity Studies, people are always talking about failure and how important failure is and how necessary and vital it is actually to the creative process. We have to be willing to fail, willing to take risks, willing to have it not work out. And then, we learn and grow. And, you know, pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and carry on. 

Dreux: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's kind of what separates, like, the arts from the science. I mean, it's all the same universe, but, you know, with science, with math, there is a right… you know, it's this convergence to a correct answer. And with the arts, there are, I mean, there are infinite answers to each question you can ask, they can branch off to various things. So, the failure of the artistic pursuit is, I mean, it's not a defeat. It's a discovery of, “Oh, this isn't what I'm trying to do. This isn't what I'm expecting or what I… you know, I've learned something and now I know I can go somewhere else.” It’s a conclusion of sorts, but it's more a door than a wall, you know? It's a tiny step and you go, “Okay. This is wrong, but here's another space.” 

Melinda: Yeah. And it strikes me that, like, in your example of working with concrete and like, you didn't read the instructions and learn how to mix concrete, you're just playing around. And, you know, sometimes if we follow the directions and we try to learn and master something and do it the right way, maybe you'll discover something about properties of concrete, or ways of working with concrete in a creative way that no one's ever done before. Precisely because you weren't following the known path. Right? 

Dreux: You approach it from… yeah, but I mean, there's so much to be said for.. (laughter) I mean, people have been using concrete for millennia, and so they don't know what they're doing. They know. So, it would behoove me to learn things. But the learning the facts right now is not exactly what I'm after. It's the learning gets a little woowoo. (Laughter) But I don't want to learn the facts right now. I want to learn the truth. Of the thing. 

Melinda: Yeah. Through experience. Rather than how someone else says you should do it. 

Dreux: Yeah. Yeah. 

Melinda: Yeah. I love that. And I want to kind of come back to this like, we've talked a lot about self-doubt and working with self-doubt, and things like that. But also, you know, the other piece of this that we kind of touched on in the beginning is mental health. And, you know, in this podcast, we're trying to dispel some of the stereotypes around creativity, like the myth of the tortured artist or that, you know, creative people tend to be depressive or addicts or whatever. And, you know, certainly there's stereotypes and sometimes the stereotypes have some truth to them because as much as it doesn't have to be that way, the reality is that a lot of highly creative people are also highly intelligent, and their brains are often working overtime.

And that can lead to anxiety and self-doubt, and mental health issues. And then, of course, we all have traumas of one form or another, and people who are highly creative often find ways of working creatively with their trauma or through their trauma, or use their creative work as a way to process what's happened to them. And so, I think, you know, on some level, the mental health struggles are very real. 

Dreux: And, that is… part of the… I live in my head too much. There have been parts of my life where I'm like, “If I could exist as simply a consciousness and had no body, that would be awesome.” (Laughter) I don't know where to put myself in space when I'm around people, I don't know… I don't know how to be a physical being. (Laughter) And my mind is always questioning itself. So, I think, I don't… I've not, in the creative stuff I've done, I've not really worked in three dimensional sculptural or text or things. You know, posters and writing. And so, I think that that was sort of a way from, I was trying to, get out of my head and into my body, my hands. 

Working with textures, which, you know, to sort of stimulate the parts of my brain that I don't usually stimulate. Which is again, it's trying to… I mean, because I've sort of, the wagon paths of my brain (laughter), are really deep to go from stress to panic to anxiety. So, to sort of shortcut that, I give it different input. Input that it's not used to. It doesn't… I'm not used to working with, you know, gritty sand and cement and making a shape rather than, you know, this two-dimensional thing. I think, with mental health - I mean, for me, the patterns that I've created in my mind, are patterns that may have served me, but are really hamstringing me now. 

Melinda: Sure. 

Dreux: So, trying to find ways to engage. Like, to get ahead of my own thinking. You know, and if I can do that enough, then it's simple. Then, simply the acting is the second nature thing. Like, you're a musician. You know, you sing, you play instruments, and so, like, music can come to you, and you can, like, interact with it because you've lived with it, you know, that long. And that's kind of how I'm trying to engage with different types of creativity now. Is just to get them to… to get my relationship with it, ahead of my thinking about it. 

Melinda: Yes. And I think you mentioned like, sort of physicality and embodiment, and I think, you know, playing music is a great example of that. And, I find, I'm not a big… I don't do a ton of visual art but sometimes when I've just played with drawing or whatever, that can be a way. Just because it's a manual kind of thing, or painting. But also, I used to do stained glass and mosaics, and it was just something I picked up that I didn't have any prior experience with. It was at a time in my life when I was kind of wandering in the desert, you might say. And I just thought, “Well, this is something that's always fascinated me. I'm just going to take a class.” And I learned it, and I got really, really into it. And part of the reason was the physicality of like, cutting glass and, you know, grinding the edges, and putting it together and using the chemicals and the soldering iron. 

And there's all these different steps and they're all manual. And I would get into like, a flow state with that, you know, where I would like, enter into a different part of my brain. And hours would go by, and I wouldn't even realize it. And I think that is a good way. You know, we talk a lot, and you mentioned this like, convergent and divergent thinking, and our brains have a tendency to want to plan and overthink things and project into the future. And sometimes, if we can get into that more embodied state where we're physically engaged, some of that can quiet down a little bit. 

Dreux: Yeah. I agree. 

Melinda: Yeah. Totally. Well, so, I'm curious, do you have any other projects in the works that you're kind of excited about right now or...? 

Dreux: It's… there's a lot of… I'm doing a lot of just play and experimentation. Like I mentioned, we have bamboo outside of our house. (Laughter) It spreads quickly. So, I've chopped some stuff down, and I have an interest in, like, what I call micro shelters. I mean, I'm thinking even smaller, you know, eight by eight kind of little shelters. And I'm like, I might build something again, without knowing how to do anything. Can I build a shelter out of bamboo? And then, you know, once I try my thing and fail, then I can learn, how do other people actually do it? 

Melinda: Yeah. Right. (Laughter) 

Dreux: I mean, that's one thing - I bought this vintage overhead projector in an antique store a few weeks ago. And it works. And so, I'm going to do some - I think I've been like, I've been drawing and painting in my life, but I think it's because I've been working too small. I need to work on a wall. 

Melinda: Oh, yeah. Large scale. 

Dreux: So, that's something I'm going to be looking into in the next little while. 

Melinda: Okay. I'm trying to imagine this. I love this idea of the antique projector. So you’re going to like, use a projector to project something on the wall? 

Dreux: Yeah. A canvas on the wall or a big piece of plywood and you know… but transferring image. It's about image transfer. So again, just experiment. And I have ideas for a like, a pinhole camera kind of thing. So, I mean, I have ideas. Things I want to pursue. 

Melinda: Yeah. Love that. 

Dreux: No end or no intention in mind right now. 

Melinda: And I think that's kind of one of the hallmarks of creative people. It's that, just getting ideas about like, “Well, what would happen if I got this projector and projected on the wall and like… or “What if I just take this bag of concrete and see what happens?” (Laughter) You know, just always trying out different things and not being afraid to, like, just experiment with totally different media or ways of going about things. 

Dreux: Yeah. Yeah. 

Melinda: Yeah. Cool. So, I usually try to end each episode with, you know, what we're calling a Creativity Pro Tip. Something that people can try out. And we've already talked about a few things on the show. But again, maybe, you know, to somebody who is struggling with self-doubt around their creativity or mental health issues, what's something they could maybe try out and see if it helps them? 

Dreux: I'm a firm believer in sort of, cross-pollination of genres. And so, you know, if you're creative, you're a painter traditionally, try go just get some clay and like, Play-Doh and, you know, use a different thing in your brain. But not just like, across the arts, but, you know, if you're a painter, study the concept in physics. You know, it on the surface has nothing to do with what you're doing. I mean, it's not art, it's science. It's theoretical. But it tickles your brain in a way that you don't usually tickle your brain. So, I think keep finding ways to surprise yourself or to disrupt your expectations. 

Melinda: Yeah. I love that. Disrupt expectations. And I mean, you know, the field of Creativity Studies, there's so many stories of people who are working across domains or in different domains where one thing informed another thing. And I find that in my own life, it's like, if I'm working on a song or a piece of writing or whatever it is, you know, the other things that are happening in my life speak to it in interesting ways. And that's kind of the essence of creativity, is making associations between seemingly unrelated things. 

Dreux: Yeah. Exactly. Making the brain go, “Oh! Oh!” You know, each time there's something a little more surprising. You know… there's something there that's fresh. 

Melinda: Exactly. Yeah. And just being open to curiosity and surprise, as you said. I love that. Awesome. Well, thanks, Dreux. It's been such a pleasure to chat with you. 

Dreux: Yeah. This was fun. 

Melinda: And if people do want to learn more about you and what you're up to, what's a good way for them to find you? 

Dreux: Well, that would be pretty difficult. (Laughter) 

Melinda: I know you have a LinkedIn. Is that one we could mention? 

Dreux: I do. I don’t use it a lot. I'm on different things, but I don't use them often. I check in now and then. That's another thing I'm trying to come to terms with, is my hermit-like tendencies. 

Melinda: As with many, many creatives, understandable. Well, I know where to find you. 

Dreux: You do. Yeah. Absolutely. So people can contact you. You can call me and say, “Do you want this person to contact you?” No, no.

Melinda: Yeah. Sometimes that's what people say, you know? Yeah. They want to get in touch with me, through you. That's fine. So, yeah. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And I hope to see you in person sometime soon. 

Dreux: Yeah. I'd love that. Yeah. Thank you so much, Melinda. This was great. 

Melinda: Of course. My pleasure. Find and connect with us on YouTube and social media under @syncreate. If you enjoy this show, please subscribe and leave us a review. And again, we'd love to hear from you. So, drop us a line at info@syncreate.org. We'd love to hear your feedback on the show, if you've tried out some of our Pro Tips and how that went for you, as well as topics you'd like us to cover, and potential guests. 

We’re recording today at Record ATX Studios in Austin, Texas, with Dreux joining us from the Hudson Valley. The podcast is produced in collaboration with Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios. Thanks so much for being with us, and see you next time.