Episode 93: Creativity and Collaboration in Internal Family Systems (IFS) Work with Alisa Carr, LCSW

How do we work with the multiple energies, drives, and desires, sometimes conflicting, inside ourselves? Internal Family Sytems (IFS) is a therapeutic modality that focuses on healing the wounded and protective parts that we all carry within us, in service of internal connection and collaboration. Alisa Carr, LCSW, uses IFS in her therapeutic work to help clients find clarity, creativity, spiritual connection, and more satisfying relationships. Our conversation focuses on the IFS process and how it can enhance intra-personal, or inner, creativity and collaboration for a more joyful and vibrant life. 

For our Creativity Pro-Tip, we encourage you to pay close attention to your body and mind whenever you feel triggered or overwhelmed, as it likely signals a part of you that’s asking for attention and nurturance. Try dialoguing with it to learn how it’s trying to help you or what it needs from your Self energy. 

Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.

If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in Episode 42: Creativity & Depth Psychology with Jennifer Leigh Selig, Episode 85: Living a Spiritual Life with Wisdom Pathways Co-Founders Jenny Fairbank and Steven Ross, and Episode 87: Dreams and Creativity with Musician, Poet & Psychotherapist Linus Streckfus.

At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you’re not sure how to get it off the ground, find us at syncreate.org. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching, including a monthly creativity coaching group, to help you bring your work to the world. You can find more information on our website, where you can also find all of our podcast episodes. Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review or drop us a line at info@syncreate.org. 

Episode-specific hyperlinks: 

Alisa’s Website: Eye of the Heart (eye4heart.com)

5th International Possibility Studies Conference

IFS Institute

Show / permanent hyperlinks: 

The Syncreate Podcast

Syncreate Website

Syncreate Instagram

Syncreate Facebook

Syncreate LinkedIn

Syncreate YouTube

Melinda Rothouse Website

Austin Writing Coach

Melinda Joy Music Website

Transcript

Melinda: Creativity and community are absolutely vital in challenging times. Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to create. Our goal is to demystify the process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. We talk with visionaries and change makers, and everyday creatives working in a wide range of fields and media - from the arts to science, technology and business.

We aim to illuminate the creative process, from imagination to innovation and everything in between. I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their dreams and visions to life. At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors, so if you have an idea for a project or a new venture, whatever that might look like - from a book, a piece of art or music, an entrepreneurial venture - please reach out to us at syncreate.org. 

Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools and coaching to help bring your work to the world, including a monthly coaching group. You can find out much more information on our website. 

So, my guest today is Alisa Carr. She's a healer, therapist, artist, musician, and woman of many talents. She's a licensed clinical social worker, dream worker, and InterSpiritual Guidess based right here in Austin, Texas. She's the founder of Eye of the Heart Psychotherapy, and she works with internal family systems, among many other modalities. We also collaborate together on music - we play in a band together, and she's a wonderful mosaic artist. 

So, Alisa - so many, so many things we can talk about today in connection with creativity, but so good to have you here. 

Alisa: Thank you for having me. 

Melinda: Yes. It's so lovely. We've been talking about doing this for a while. 

Alisa: Yes. Yes. 

Melinda: And we had Randy, your partner, on the show in a previous episode. So, here we are. And so I wanted to have you on the show for many reasons. Because of all of the collaborations that we have together, and we've also done some trade work where I got to experience IFS or Internal Family Systems work. Which I found to be very interesting. And though I personally have been in psychotherapy for many decades and worked with many different therapists, this particular approach of Internal Family Systems, I found that there's something about it that goes really deep, and I was able to somehow tap into deeper layers emotionally, very quickly. 

Than sometimes in regular talk therapy or even other types of somatic therapy. So, I found that fascinating. And I wonder if maybe you could just share, for those who might not be as familiar, what is IFS and how does it work? 

Alisa: Internal Family Systems, IFS. It was founded by Dick Schwartz and I believe now 30 years ago or something like that. It is a way of conceptualizing our psyche. And it has some pretty essential elements. So, one of those elements is the idea that we all have what they call “Self" (with the capital S) - Self-Energy. I like to think of it like the drop of the divine. So, that place where there is no judgment, there is no agenda, and there's also some other qualities of it that we can talk about later. 

And so, there's that aspect and that is the place of healing. And then there are these other aspects of our psyche. It's talked about in parts. Like, that we have parts. There’s all kinds of ways to conceptualize it, but that's the language of Internal Family Systems. And so, like, we could think of our behavior patterns or parts of our personality are these parts, and some of the parts are more protective. Like, we have managers and we have firefighters. 

So, those are the ones that try to help us function in the world. And then we have the parts of us that are called/referred to as the exiles. So those would be the more maybe wounded ones or ones that we've had to hide or reject or - not that they stay hidden, but that's sort of an understanding of the concepts of it. 

And then the way that we work with that is to get to know each part and parts show up like I said, with in our behavior patterns, maybe in a sensation in our body. And instead of moving some sort of, you know, either annoying or blocking or challenging parts out of the way to get to the wounded-ness, we don't do that. We say, “Oh, we're going to meet you. We're going to meet you right where you are and and get to know those parts.” 

Melinda: So, can you think of a particular example maybe where, of a part showing up either in your own experience or work with clients? Like, how do you know when a part is showing up? 

Alisa: Well, any time there's like, strong emotion or any time there's an agenda which - that's just like, trying to get somewhere or trying to do something. That's how you know you have a part. You don't always know what kind it is or you don't always - you know, a vulnerable part could show up, like, you know, maybe, I know that I have a kind of a fierce part of me.

So, that might show up sometimes when I feel misunderstood or, you know, somebody's got something wrong or I don't feel heard. But parts could be, you know, there could be alcoholic parts. There could be aggressive parts. There could be depressed parts. Pretty much any kind of behavior pattern that we have. We can sort of get to know it that way. 

Melinda: And in coming to recognize and become familiar with these different parts or these different aspects of ourselves or aspects of our psyche, what is the sort of goal with that? 

Alisa: It can be all kinds of different goals. Like, some people just want to know themselves more. And I guess, maybe an overriding goal might be to live more from that Self-Energy place. So, we're never trying to get rid of our parts, and we're never saying we don't need them. Like, certainly you need to have an agenda at times. (Laughter) But we're trying to reorganize the relationship. I think they talk about this in Jungian psychology too. 

So that there's a relationship with the part to the Self-Energy and that we're leading with, and I can talk about those qualities now if you want. But so, the qualities of the Self Energy, they call it the “8 C Words” - which doesn't mean that there's only eight qualities (laughter) - but these sort of like, are telling you, “Okay, like maybe you have some Self-Energy on board.” So, those are: calmness, compassion, courage, confidence, creativity, connection, curiosity. And there's one more that's not coming to me right now, but it'll come in a minute. 

Melinda: I'm sure it'll show up. 

Alisa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Melinda: Yeah. It's interesting. So I'm thinking about the parallels with Jungian psychology, as you mentioned. You know, those parts that are maybe the Exiles might correspond to, sometimes we talk about the shadow. In Jungian psychology, those aspects of ourselves that we that we've repressed or pushed away or we don't want to look at. Right? But then we're sort of cutting off aspects of our being. So the goal would be to integrate those within - because in Jungian terms, they also talk about the Self with the capital S. Right? And it's all in service of kind of integration. 

Alisa: Yeah. I would say that, integration - it would be more collaboration in Internal Family Systems because we're not like trying to meld the parts together. However, I love the idea of we're just able to access more of the energy that they have. And so, especially when protective parts aren't using the energy to protect us, when they recognize that maybe we don't really need that anymore, then we have access to that energy for expansion or enhancing our lives or, you know, creativity. Whatever, however, we're trying to live more fully. 

Melinda: Yes. And I love that you bring up collaboration, because that's one of the themes that I think I wanted to highlight today. You know, you and I, as well as Randy and my other colleague Robert Cleve, both of who have been on this show, are going to be collaborating to present a panel at a conference in Ireland this summer, on kind of the possibilities for creative collaboration in challenging times. And so, the kind of your piece of it, is using IFS work to look at like internal, sort of intrapersonal collaboration and then interpersonal collaboration, whether that's between the client and the therapist or more broadly. 

Alisa: Right. Right. 

Melinda: Yeah. So maybe let's chat a little bit more about that at the end. But I know when we were talking kind of leading up to this conversation, you were really emphasizing kind of the story of how you came to this work and sort of some interesting synchronicities and points along that journey. So how how did you come into kind of embracing IFS as a big piece of what you do? 

Alisa: Well, so, it involved me having to let go of some ego. So I had been - my windy path of spirituality and psychology had - I had been doing parts work for a long time, inner child work and my friend, Dana Gillespie, she had found some of the online IFS community, and she was telling me aboutDick Schwartz and IFS for years. And I was, in a way, blowing it off because, I was thinking, “I've been doing this all this time, and this guy's making all this money of it…” (laughter) 

Melinda: Right. Right. 

Alisa: And so, it took me a while but she - yeah, she was going to go to the training, and so, she invited me or asked me if I would write her a recommendation for it, and maybe I would want to go. The training by the way, you go every other weekend - no, you go every other month for a  long weekend, for a year. And we were going - it was in the Boston area, so when I got home and looked at it, I saw that the training was being held inNatick, and my niece and nephew lived in Natick at the time. And I've been there, you know, a lot of times. 

And so I was like, “Huh. Maybe, maybe I gotta check this out.” And so, I did, and I'm really glad that I did. I think I had been a therapist for, I don't know, 22 years or something. This was in 2016, I went. And there were some - it was some nuances that have been profound in my own life. And I think in working with clients. So, I'm really grateful that I took that step, and actually at the training, I had this experience of just feeling, maybe like more myself than I had maybe ever been in a group of people that size and it was wonderful. Awesome. 

Melinda: Like, maybe you felt like you could be more authentic self? 

Alisa: Right. Like, I was appreciated and free, you know, free to be me. Of course, I think being in Boston, the three of us Texas girls, (laughter), with our accent and they're kind of loud too, I think. It was fun. 

Melinda: Yeah. And so, in your work since that time, kind of incorporating IFS into your therapeutic and healing work, how have you seen it impact people's lives doing this work? 

Alisa: Well, I think this will get to that answer but, one of the nuances that I really embraced and could see, there's two things. One is the working with Protectors. So, I feel like one of my strengths, but it can also be a liability at times, is I feel like I can see the pathway. I can often see where the wound is. And, in this model, you don't just zoom in there and go after it. You respect people's systems. 

Melinda: Sure. 

Alisa: And, even though, like, intellectually, we might could talk about whatever that place or wound is, if we don't have the permission from the whole system, I mean, it can actually cause some harm. Like, people have reactions to that. And, so that was a key for me, was slowing down, checking - and this is where the collaboration, the intra collaboration comes in - I'll get to that in a little bit, and just really, in another learning I had like, you're talking about talking about it. 

You're addressing all of the concerns and fears and protectiveness before you get to the heart of the matter. So, that was key for a lot of clients. And then another key was coming from my own Self-Energy. So if I have an agenda, if I have a part that has an agenda, that’s not helpful. Or my part that loves to make connections and you know, think about things, if it wants to jump in and take over, that's not helpful. 

So, being able to work with myself and stay in my own Self-Energy, that also has been key. And I think for clients, their systems just feel a little more respected. And there is more collaboration. It is challenging for some people to really begin to trust their own Self-Energy. But that is one of the pieces of this work with clients. It's a lot different from other modalities. So the therapist often stays in the position of expert, and we're really inviting people to find their own place of center and clarity and wisdom. 

Melinda: Yeah. It’s really interesting because like, you know, I'm a certified coach. I’m not a therapist, but in my coach training, you know, one of the things that was really emphasized that in coaching, you're not being directive, just like you're talking about, you know, you're not giving advice necessarily, but you're holding space for people and asking open ended, powerful questions to help them access their own wisdom. 

So, it sounds like there's a parallel there. And when - you know, we've done some of this work together, I've observed how you do that. You know, we'll be talking about a situation or a memory or something that's alive in the moment. And there's, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of curiosity, just asking questions about it. Rather than saying like, “Well, it sounds like what's going on here is…” 

It's more like, “Oh, and what does that feel like?” And, you know, things like that, which is really interesting. And it also brings to mind, I remember quite vividly when I was in college, there was a guest speaker that came, and she was a psychologist and she was talking about this idea that we all have many personalities within us. Not in terms of split personality or multiple personality, in terms of a disorder. But, you know - and I don't know if she was an IFS person or not - but just this idea that we walk around and we think we have this coherent sense of self, but in reality, there are these many different - and sometimes not competing - but different parts of ourselves may have different agendas. And that's why often I think, you know, people struggle when there's this internal tension. It's like, we want this, but we want that. 

Or, you know, we feel drawn towards something but we're hesitant or we feel ambivalent. And we get stuck and that creates psychological distress because of this unresolved tension, you know. And I think from a neuroscientific perspective, we have this frontal cortex that is operating the executive functioning mind, which gives us kind of this illusion that we are this one coherent, flowing thing and that we're in charge of everything, and we know what's going on. But, you know, kind of underneath that, there's many, many different things going on, some of which are in our immediate conscious awareness and many others which aren't. 

Alisa: Right. Right. Well, the way that IFS would talk about that is how we have polarities. And even when you explore the polarities, often they're actually - so another thing, another common question is, “What is this part trying to do for you? How is it trying to help you?” Even if it's showing up in ways that to everyone else is clear, it's not helpful. There is assumed this intention. And often, even opposite behaviors will be having the same intention, just very different ways of going about it. 

Melinda: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Alisa: Which I mean, don't we find that in our relationships as well? (Laughter) 

Melinda: Of course.

Alisa: We all have this intention, or the intention is the same intention. But these different ways of approaching something, that appear to be in conflict at times. 

Melinda: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, I'm curious because this show is about creativity, psychology and spirituality. We've been kind of explicitly talking about the last two, but how does this work relate to creativity? Both for you personally and your work with clients? 

Alisa: For clients - a while, actually probably about the same time I was doing the training, I had an exercise to kind of list the outcomes of the work that I do with people, and an outcome that sort of naturally happens when people are doing deep and honest inner work is more creativity in their life. And sometimes that looks like art projects or music, but oftentimes it might look like, you know, a new way to do your work in the world or a new way to be in relationship or like, creativity comes in all those, more possibilities. 

Melinda: Absolutely. 

Alisa: And, for me, that's been true. I would say. So creativity is one of the C words in Self-Energy and there are multiple pathways or practices that we do, that I have done throughout my journey, that give us more access to that Self-Energy. This kind of inner work is one of those ways. And I think I was telling you, I often think about, you know, if our Self-Energy was this magical cabin deep in the woods that just sparkled and emanated all of this magic, that our pathway to get there is often, you know, crowded out with trees or brush or weeds or whatever, and that this work is like, one by one, just clearing the way. And to access more of that energy there. 

So, for me, whether it's been doing dream work or meditation or working with my parts or, you know, artwork, when I do those things, they're all clearing that pathway. And so, I've had more access, I think, to my creativity. Interestingly, while I was in that year of doing the IFS training is when I had this idea I wanted to mosaic my shower. And I started it while I was doing that training. So it was - there was like a space to take that leap. 

Melinda: Yes. Yeah. And I mean, it makes perfect sense to me because I really believe that our creativity is connected to our life-force energy. And if we have things that are kind of blocking us or holding us back, or things that we haven't processed or dealt with, or things that are repressed, that's going to have a dampening impact on our energy generally, and specifically in our creative energy. 

Alisa: Right. Well, and I see that in two ways. So, as you were mentioning before, somebody might have a desire or a goal. So, say their desire to paint or make music or something. And then there's all of these very specific messages (parts) that prevent that from happening. Like, “Oh, you're not good enough or your perfectionistic…” Or, you know, maybe somebody, when they were a kid said, “No, you can't sing…” Whatever the particular block is, there's that to weed through. 

But then also, it could be just totally unrelated. Like you were saying, like, the things that weigh us down, or there's ways that we think of being. I think we were programed, you know. Coded in a certain way. And this work is decoding that just gives us more freedom. To express. And find possibility. 

Melinda: Yeah. For sure. That makes perfect sense. And then, kind of circling back to this idea of collaboration, both internal and kind of, interpersonal collaboration… So, I know for myself, I do a lot of different things. I've always done a lot of different things. But earlier in my life, it felt a bit scattered. Like, I was doing this thing over here, and, you know, I was adjunct teaching and working at three different universities, and I had my music, and I was at another part time job, and I was, you know, just doing this, that and the other thing. 

And then, around the time I started my PhD, which was in psychology, but focusing on creativity, I started to begin to feel like, “Oh! There’s a common thread…” Or there's a common theme to all these different threads, which was creativity. And the more that I could sort of integrate all those strands into a coherent whole, I felt less scattered and much more integrated and much more like I was moving in a particular direction with a certain momentum. And so, I think that's one way that that collaboration can show up. But yeah, again, what does that look like for you and in your work with clients? 

Alisa: Well, the way I'm seeing the collaboration is a little more specific, or the more fine threads, I guess, of that. So, when - and you probably have experienced this when we did our trade - you know, people - you start the session and I have learned to ask like, “Well, what do you want to focus on today?” Versus, “What’s happening or how do you feel?” (Laughter) You know, like that. And so, once somebody has something that they want to focus on, then we are checking - what we're doing is we're checking to see if we have access to Self-Energy. The way that we do that as we ask, like, “Are there any fears or concerns about us focusing on this particular topic or experience or part?” And if there's not, like, if there are fears and concerns, we have to stop and address those fears and concerns. 

So, and then, answer might be “Okay. No, we're good. We’re good. We’re good.” And then we start. But then something comes up and we we don't just pursue. We start to say, “Okay. What’s up?” You know, “What are you worried about, or what’s the concern about this?” So that's how I see it, as this inner or intra-collaboration. All the parts, they don't have to have their fears. They don't have to have no fear. Or they don't have to have no concern. They just have to say, “Oh, okay. I can live with that. And yes, I'll sit over here and let this proceed. Until I don't. And then I'll let you know.” Like, so there's this kind of like, an agreement and a little bit of a contract that we're getting. Does that make sense? That's how I was sort of looking at it - 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely.  

Alisa: And then the same thing is happening with the therapist. And we have a - there's a phrase of, “We can speak from a part or we can speak for a part”. So when a part is like, completely taking us over. And we don't have any separation then. You know, we speak from the part. But we can speak for - so, you know, if I'm feeling a protective part or you know, I have like, sometimes with clients like a mama part. Or my one that loves to connect the dots. I can acknowledge that. And also, we ask clients, “Hey, if you feel like I'm coming from a part, let me know that. Like, let me check to see.” So, in that way, it's going on both sides and interpersonal as well. 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. So, it kind of makes me wonder, have you noticed any particular arc of how this process works with people over time? Or you were speaking earlier about, kind of what are the impacts or what are the results of doing this work? Are there certain qualities that you've noticed in people that have been engaging with this work over time? 

Alisa: Yes. I mean, it is a little bit hard to tease out, like, specifically what's related to Internal Family Systems. But there's a lot of weaving of all those places. But, you know, what I am never surprised by is when people learn to express themselves more. Especially for women, they use their voice more. They’re okay with setting more boundaries. Maybe their heart’s more open. Whereas, if someone felt a little blocked about expressing emotion, now it's flowing a little more easily. It's very, very common for people's relationships to be positively impacted. 

I mean, I always say, “In a relationship, if one person is different, it's going to be different.” It might not go the way you want it to go, but it is going to be different. But very often, people feel positive effects in their relationships. And people go back to school. People find their spirituality. Often that is the case. 

Melinda: Yeah. So, I’m noticing just themes - and I think the themes are common to the show also and to, you know, as we embrace our creativity more and more where we're embracing our authenticity, right? Charlotte and I just did an episode on creativity and courage. And the more that we sort of, take risks and practice bravery and our creativity, the more we can do so in the wider world. And this sense of just having access to our authentic selves, rather than just all the conditioning from society. We can feel more confident in our own being and in relation to other people. 

Alisa: Yeah. And I guess the way I would say that is, like, you’re in safer spaces. Your parts are giving you space. The ones that might have been front and center. And then, you get to have the experience of that. And your parts are learning to trust the Self-Energy. And then, you know, then you practice it more. So then, when they have that experience, they can keep on giving you more space - 

Melinda: Or, you know, also giving other people space, like when things come up, you know. Just noticing like, “Oh, I'm having a feeling right now…” And acknowledging that within ourselves and like, if we're having tension with another person. Like, “Oh - and they're having a feeling right now…” And like, we can have compassion for ourselves and for the other person and, you know, find a solution that doesn't necessarily require confrontation. Being able to empathize with ourselves and the other person and maybe… like, I'm just thinking of a situation with my sister that happened the other day. We had all these aspirations - I was down in Mexico - and all these things we wanted to do. 

And we couldn't get to everything. It was like, “Oh - we want to go do this thing. We want to do this thing.” And end of the day, and we're exhausted. And it's kind of disappointing. Like, “Oh. We were going to do this thing. And now we've run out of time and we're exhausted …” And like, it's okay. It just is what it is. Nobody needs to get upset about it. We can just acknowledge like, “Oh, yeah. We wanted to do that and we've run out of energy for today.” (Laughter) You know? Tomorrow’s a new day. Rather than getting like, you know, bent out of shape about it, or intoning. 

Alisa: And you bringing that up - there’s another practice is - and, you know, my parts take over all the time. 

Melinda: Yeah, sure. 

Alisa: But the thing that I know to do is to check with my parts. Like, if there's some intensity or if there's a strong emotion, or if I have done something that doesn't really resonate, I know to check and to see, “Okay. What’s going on? What are you worried about? What are you protecting?” And for me, that is collaborating with myself. And that is making room for everything. Which feels like a spiritual concept to me. Like, everything belongs. (Laughter) And it might not - it can't be included if it's not going to play well with others, but it still can belong. 

Melinda: Right. Right. And just can be acknowledged. 

Alisa: Yeah. So again, like the curiosity. Staying in curiosity with myself and with others too.  

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're getting toward the end of our time. I know there's so much to talk about. But again, just to let folks know, we are going to be presenting at this conference in Dublin the very end of June, beginning of July. It's the Conference of Possibility Studies. So, if you're curious, we’ll put a link in the show notes. Should be a great conference. And then we also have our musical collaborations, and you lead different workshops and retreats, cacao ceremonies, all kinds of things. 

So, we'll definitely make sure that people can find you if they want to learn more. But, I like to end each episode with what I call a Pro Tip, which is something that people can kind of try out on their own, and kind of run with. So, just related to this conversation we've been having about IFS, creativity, collaboration… like, maybe for somebody who's not familiar with this work and hasn't necessarily done it before, what's maybe one thing that they could try out and experiment with? 

Alisa: The thing that I - well, it has a few steps - one is pay attention. Pay attention and notice. What's going on in your body? What's going on in your mind? And when there's some kind of intensity, just be curious. Like, ask a question if you feel very overwhelmed. Just try asking your part to give you a little space. And, you know, if you want to take it a little bit deeper than that, you ask your part, how is it trying to help you? How'd it learn to do that thing that it's doing?  

Melinda: Yes. And usually these are survival mechanisms that we've learned that served a purpose at some point. 

Alisa: Exactly. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. (Laughter) Their tactics make a lot of sense when you get to know the stories. 

Melinda: Right. But they might have become now counterproductive. Or they might be holding us back in some way. Like, we talk about the internal critic a lot in coaching, or the saboteur. You know, something that's trying to protect us but ends up keeping us small. You know, things like that. So, great. And so, if people want to learn more about all the things that you're up to and all the services that you offer, what’s the best way for them to find you? 

Alisa: My website. Which I have to say is not completely updated. But I do have a newsletter that you can sign up for that I write somewhat regularly. And you can reach out to me through email, through my website. 

Melinda: Okay. Great. And it’s eyeoftheheart.com? 

Alisa: It is www.eye4heart.com. 

Melinda: Okay. Great. We’ll be sure and put that in the show notes. 

Alisa: Thank you. 

Melinda: Alright. Well, thank you so much, Alisa. It's been - 

Alisa: Thank you. Melinda. I was thinking we should talk about synchronicity sometime. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Oh, we should. Yeah, definitely. So many things to talk about. That would be a great topic. Alright. Thanks so much. 

Alisa: Thank you.

Melinda: Find and connect with us on YouTube and social media under @syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review or reach out to us at info@syncreate.org. We'd love to hear your feedback on the show, as well as ideas for potential topics and guests. 

We're recording today at Record ATX Studios in Austin, Texas, in person with Alisa Carr. The podcast is produced in collaboration with Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios. Thanks so much for being with us, and see you next time.