Episode 83: Proprioception with Poet and Professor C. Prudence Arceneaux

Poet C. Prudence Arceneaux is Chair of the Creative Writing Department at Austin Community College. Her work has appeared in various journals, including The Academy of American Poets’ Poem-A-Day, Limestone, New Texas, African Voices and Inkwell. She is the author of two chapbooks of poetry — Dirt (awarded the 2018 Jean Pedrick Prize) and Liberty. Her new full-length collection Proprioception is now available Texas Review Press. Fellow Texas poet Naomi Shihab Nye writes of Propriception: “How Arceneaux manages to be wry, sexy, contemplative, and rueful all at once, is a wonder.” Our conversation ranges from the earthy sensuality of Arceneaux’s poems to the curiosity that inspires many of her poems, and she shares several poems from Proprioception.

For our Creativity Pro-Tip, if you want to try your hand at writing a poem, begin with your grocery list, or someone else’s shopping cart. Then begin to explore the stories, needs, and desires behind the items in the list or the cart. Contemplate the items and see what language follows from them. If you try this, please share your creations with us!

Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.

If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in Episode 6: Gratitude, Gentleness, and Generosity with Mayela Padilla Manasjan, Episode 52: Texas Poet Laureate Amanda Johnston, Episode 73: Theatre, Storytelling, and the Labor of Creativity with Marcus McQuirter, PhD.

At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you’re not sure how to get it off the ground, find us at syncreate.org. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review!

Episode-specific hyperlinks: 

Prudence’s New Poetry Collection: Proprioception

Prudence’s Poem “Menopause”

Prudence Arceneaux on Instagram

Austin Community College Creative Writing Department

Show / permanent hyperlinks: 

The Syncreate Podcast

Syncreate Website

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Melinda Rothouse Website

Austin Writing Coach

Transcript

Melinda: Creativity and community are absolutely vital in challenging times. Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to create. Our goal is to demystify the process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. We talk with visionaries and change makers, and everyday creatives working in a wide range of fields and media - from the arts to science, technology and business.

We aim to illuminate the creative process, from imagination to innovation and everything in between. I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their dreams and visions to life. At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. So, if you have an idea for a project or a new venture - whether it's a book, a piece of music, an artistic venture, entrepreneurial, whatever it might be - reach out to us at Syncreate.org. We can help you get it off the ground. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools and coaching to help you bring your work to the world, including a monthly creativity coaching group. So, check out the website for more details. 

So, our guest today is Prudence Arceneaux. She's a poet and chair of the Austin Community College Creative Writing Department, where she's a professor. Her work has appeared in various journals, including the Academy of American Poets, Poem-A-Day, Limestone, Texas Observer, African Voices, Inkwell, and many more. She's the author of two poetry chapbooks, Dirt and Liberty, and her new full-length collection is just out, called Proprioception. It's just been released from Texas Review Press. 

So welcome, Prudence, to the show. I'm so delighted to have you here today. 

Prudence: Thanks for having me.

Melinda: Yeah. And I feel like, Marcus, who we had on the show from ACC a little while back… you know, it's like, I've been hearing your name for years, mostly through Charlotte, but through other people as well. And I'm just glad that we've finally gotten to connect directly. 

Prudence: Yeah, I've seen your face, but it's your voice that I keep hearing in my socials. (Laughter) And it's been like this soothing balm, so I'm happy to be in this space with that. 

Melinda: Thank you. Thank you. Great. So, you are a poet and a professor, and chair of the Creative Writing Department at Austin Community College. 

Prudence: Who knew a poet could do all this stuff? 

Melinda: I know. It's amazing. It's so great. And it's so great to have a poet in that role, you know? So, so many things I'm excited to talk to you about, but kind of one of the reasons that I really wanted to have you on the show is because as I've been reading some of your work and just getting to know you as much as I can online, there's such a vibrance and a whole heartedness in your poetry, as well as a sensuality. And I just have this sense of someone who is living life fully. 

Prudence: Trying to. (Laughter) I’m trying to. I would argue that most of the people who work with me throughout my academic career would have described me as difficult. 

Melinda: How so? 

Prudence: Because… well, because there seems to be an abstract ness to some poetry. 

Melinda: Yes. 

Prudence: A kind of disconnection. Which, I love the idea of investigating the sublime but most of us are living here on this plane. I can recall one of my instructors asking like, “Why do you have to have dandruff in this particular poem?” (Laughter) And I was like, “Because it's a thing!” 

Melinda: It happens. 

Prudence: We’re humans and we're living a life, right? And it is part of our experience. And she had referred to my stuff as ‘earthy’, and I thought, it’s where we live. 

Melinda: Yes. We are here on the Earth. 

Prudence: I’m ok with that. Yeah. Capital E, Earthy. I want to live in all the experiences I can. I'm the person who's always looking for the free stuff to do around town. And if there is something odd or intriguing - like, someone just wants to make origami over at the Austin Creative Reuse - I'll go do it. Right. I've not done origami before, but it's on my calendar to do this thing, right? 

Melinda: That’s great. Yeah. 

Prudence: Because it's a thing I wouldn't normally do. It's not organic to my existence. So I want to go and do the thing. A few years ago, I'd seen this advertisement for a postcard convention. (Laughter) And I’m a writer. Like, I collect stamps and envelopes, and if I mail you letters, my envelopes and stamps match. It's a whole thing. And I was very like, “A postcard convention? What do you do there?” And it was at the Boy Scout Center in North Austin. And I drove over there, and it was just these humans who had been collecting postcards for decades. 

Melinda: Amazing. 

Prudence: And trading postcards. And there was something about the intrigue of other people's lives on the postcards. And I don't think there was much bartering going on. Like, I don't think there was much selling. It was just people standing around reading the lives of other people on these postcards. 

Melinda: Interesting. 

Prudence: And had I not just randomly flipped to like, “Free to do in Austin”, I wouldn't have known about it. Right? So, I want to live. I want to connect. I want to see all the things that there are. 

Melinda: Yeah. And postcards specifically, It's such a particular genre of communication. And you have to, you know, have an economy of words because there's only so much space. It's kind of a dying art, a little bit these days. 

Prudence: And it was just a lovely - it was a lovely thing. Right. Because I think as humans, we try not to talk about how much we are voyeuristic. And yet, here I was in this room of people and it wasn't a guilty thing. We were all just learning about other people's lives and the places they'd been. And to flip through and find the poignant one. Right. So everything is like, “Wish you were here. It's so great. We'll be here for another four days. Can't wait to get home.” 

And then to find the one - obviously I don't know - but like, it seems as though this person didn't want to write a letter, maybe couldn't call. But here's a sadness here. Here's a thing that's been lost here, right? And you flip it over and it's still the sunny palm trees and “Welcome To” kind of thing. Right? So I want to be in that space. I want to make those kinds of connections and live life. So, I hope that I hope that comes through my work because it is the experience I'm having. 

Melinda: Yeah. And there's a visceral quality to it. Like, one of your poems from one of your earlier collections, Dirt, where you talk about gardening with your father as a young child and just, you know, all the kind of sensory details of that experience, but also kind of how you're in a different place now. 

Prudence: Yeah. Right. And thinking of that one particularly. Like, the lessons that we learn. I think for me, that's the thing I want to do. And it may, for some people seem like a distraction from being present in the moment, but it's an understanding of what I'm getting from the space. What am I feeling from other people? And when I wrote that poem, it was that kind of thing. Like, it seems like maybe I'm not paying attention, but I am. I'm able to list all the things that are happening in the space. So, I go to a concert. Yes, I heard the music, but it's the other people around me that I'm also absorbing in that space, right? What is it that makes us human? That's really the thing. 

Melinda: Yeah. So another poem that caught my attention is your poem Menopause. And if I may, I would love to just read the first line, which says, “For further reference: I go to love like a fire engine to a three-alarm, flashing and spinning, yelling across town.” (Laughter) And I just love that because that feels so real to me. You know, like, we have these, again, sometimes abstract notions of love or what a romance or what that's like. And it's like, “Woohoo!” (Laughter) 

Prudence: And I'd been I'd been in the state of menopause since my 30s. So, as always, I was the youngest at everything with my friends. (Laughter) So, here I am, the youngest hitting this phase. And I did what I always do, which is I nerd out. I just start investigating and reading as much as I can. I was taking in all this information. And so much of the information was about a wilting. A deadening. And I just didn't see that happening. I didn't feel it happening. 

And, as I point out in the poem, like, I refused to allow it to happen. So, I think I needed that proclamation. Like, for further - just so we're clear - colon. This is what's going to happen. (Laughter) Right. Because there's this assumption - larger societal, right? - that as woman, we hit this phase and then everything lessens. Instead of everything changes. And that's the thing that we just have to work through, right? It is the change of everything. How? What do you do now that your hair grays? What do you do now that it changes texture? Like, you make a new hairstyle, right? (Laughter) 

Melinda: It’s a new phase. It's the new part of the journey. 

Prudence: And it's almost as if we'd forgotten, which I think most of us try to, puberty. It was another significant change. And we were so caught up in it that we weren't thinking about how we were changing. And now we get to live it, we get to enjoy it, and we get to choose how we're going to make that change. And that's what that poem was for me - it was, "I'm making a choice. I'm making a choice to not wilt. I'm making a choice to not fade away.” Which, is why in that poem, I yell. Because our society says that women don’t. That we shouldn't. And so, I just want that reminder. It's a fun one to read. When I read it, I preface that it's a crowd participation. 

Which I don’t normally do anywhere. And I let people know, like, you'll understand. (Laughter) When we get there. And admittedly, I wrote this in Covid, and so I wasn't thinking about, like, having a bunch of people yelling back at me. But it is so good to have an entire room of people finally feeling free enough to yell. To be in exaltation of their existence. 

Melinda: Yeah. And in your kind of commentary that accompanies the poem, in the Academy of American Poets website, you talk about how you were reading in your research that there's this derailing of sexual desires, and I think the poem is really a protest against that. Right? Like, I don't want to be derailed. (Laughter) 

Prudence: And if it is derailing, then I want it to be, by that love. The suggestion that I would not feel the same passion? Oh, I'm going to go running through the city. You're going to see it, and who cares if it's gray hair that's yelling about it? Who cares if it's wrinkles that’s yelling about? We still feel the love. We all still feel those same things that - I think I might have mentioned that I slammed the book close, and I threw it - 

Melinda: Yes. (Laughter) 

Prudence: It was just - it was a terrible thing for this author to say, “Here - accept the loss of your passion.” The passion is the root of everything, not just love. Our existence. And this author said, “Just let it go!” And I refuse. 

Melinda: Absolutely not. 

Prudence: I refuse. 

Melinda: Yeah. Good. Good for you. Well, I love that. And I just got the sense of humor also. There’s so much humor and there's very serious topics that you cover in your work, but there's also this exuberance. This joyfulness at the same time. 

Prudence: Because I think you have to have that. So, in my first collection, my first chapbook, Dirt, it was an homage to my family, specifically my father. I've always been a writer, but I was taking a long time to put together a collection. And it took his death for me to put that together. But even then, I had to think about, like, the way my family grieves. So, last week, I lost an aunt on Monday and a cousin on Wednesday. 

Melinda: Oh, gosh. 

Prudence: That's how it is in my family. And, all week long, I was still working, and people were interacting with me, and I was making jokes, because that's how my family deals with death. Because there’s so much of it in my family that part of it is about the humor of our existence. Like, we're so lucky to be here. Somehow we managed to make it to 50, 60, 100, right? How do we do that thing? That I can't not appreciate the humor of our existence as well. Even as I'm thinking about death or I'm thinking about death or I’m thinking about fears or anxiety, right? Like, it is the balance of our lives. 

It’s the thing that helps us to keep going. So, when I think about the jokes that I have, that kind of humor that underlies things, I know that for a reader, sometimes it's uncomfortable, right? Like you were just talking about this death that’s happened, right? But it's how I move through the world, right? There is a loss but what's the energy that's coming back? Like, what's the balance of that thing? Because there has to be some kind of balance in there. 

Melinda: Absolutely. Same thing in my family. You know, my sister and I developed almost, I think, this like, gallows humor just to sort of get through life. And my mom had that too and she actually passed away a few months ago. And I remember sitting with her as she was beginning her transition process. She was still conscious and there were things happening. She was having these, you know, shaking, and she was a retired physician. So I was kind of trying to ask her, like, “What's happening right now?” 

Prudence: Go into your inside acknowledge, yeah. 

Melinda: And she goes, “I don't know. I've never died before.” (Laughter) And I just thought that was so perfect. 

Prudence: Yeah. And everyone else would be horrified. “Oooh!” 

Melinda: Right. But that’s life. That's the real stuff.  

Prudence: Yeah. And it has to be an acknowledgment of both things. So I'll tell you this, I've been asked to read at my aunt's funeral. And I read at my dad's funeral, and I was myself, which means, I was a little ornery and a little cantankerous, (Laughter) and I made some choices that the family was a little, like, “What’d you just do up there?” Right? And so even when I was asked, there was kind of an understanding, like, "You're going to act right.” (Laughter) “Sure. Sure. I'll be better.” But even that - like, it was the humor of the family. “Well, is she going to do the  thing she did last time, or is she going to do something different?” 

Melinda: And they did invite you back. (Laughter) 

Prudence: I know they wanted me back, and they wanted me in front of a microphone, so -  

Melinda: You’re right. 

Prudence: - I think I did a pretty good job. But, yeah. So, it’s - I think, in my poetry, I want people to hear me. I want them to hear my voice. I think, if I'm not good at anything else in my work, it's voice. Without having met me, without having heard me, I think in my work, you hear my voice. 

Melinda: Yes. It comes through so clearly. 

Prudence: Yeah. And so, like, that's the thing I'm always going to go back to, is  - in workshops, people often say like, maybe you get rid of this line. I'm like, that's the line that lets people hear, here's the joke of it. Or here's the truth of that thing. It has to come through in my voice that way. 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm looking forward to hearing some more of your new poems. And I see you brought your book with you. 

Prudence: Can I hold it up to the camera? 

Melinda: Yes. Proprioception. And a little birdie named Charlotte told me that you have a reading coming up in the beginning of April at BookPeople.

Prudence: I do. I do. I have my official book launch April 3rd, 7pm. I'm really excited about it. The Texas Review Press has done a beautiful job.  

Melinda: Yeah, it's gorgeous. 

Prudence: They have been really careful and kind with me in this work. And I'm really excited for people to see this work and for people to read these poems. 

Melinda: Yes. Well, I'm so excited to hear some of them. And just by way of kind of introduction, I wanted to share one of the blurbs from your book, which which was so lovely. By Naomi Shihab Nye, another wonderful Texas poet, kind of a treasure in our area. And she says, “C. Prudence Arceneaux is a brilliant poet of immense ferocity & velocity. The poems of Proprioception move with muscular grace, surprise, and startle, feeling utterly fresh, unlike anyone else's poems. How Arceneaux manages to be wry, sexy, contemplative and rueful all at once, is a wonder. I love the weed pulling! What a gift. Sprung from astonishment, whirling, shifting, pitching a mind into wild new states of being, these poems are alive.” I mean. Wow, that is just - 

Prudence: For Naomi to say all of those things. (Laughter) And it's such a perfect, I think, encapsulation. Of all the things of me. Yeah. I hope that people feel those things and see those things in my work. 

Melinda: Yes. So, can we hear some of them? Which ones did you bring to share with us? 

Prudence: Which ones did I bring to share? So I brought… oh, I got three. And they kind of showcase the nerdiness of me. I know - sorry, the print in here is kind of small - so that's why I have paper here. I feel like I want to start with one that shows the sexy. 

Melinda: Yes. Let’s have it. (Laughter) 

Prudence: But I should also say, I am very nerdy. Very, very nerdy. And I think it's a thing that people don't often think about with poets. The research of it. I think when people are thinking about fiction writers, nonfiction, they understand there's research involved. And, I'm all about research, right? I find a thing, and then I - like, coming here today, The World Happiness Index, what? And that Finland has won eight years in a row. Like, so obviously, I have to go and investigate more. Like how do you determine that - 

Melinda: Yes! I saw that too. And now we're going down a bit. (Laughter) 

Prudence: Yeah. But like, how is it determined? How do you find - 

Melinda: How do you measure that? Yeah. 

Prudence: And that'll be a good four hours of my life. That kind of thing. So, I'm not known for love poems. I'm just not. And, this started with finding out that every summer on glaciers, glacial worms just pop up. And they don't seem to have any purpose. They're not - like, in soil, they help with aeration. There doesn't seem to be any purpose. They just show up. 

Melinda: They just exist? 

Prudence: Yeah. (Laughter) So I heard it and I thought, what a strange thing. But also, I am a nautical disaster nerd. (Laughter) So, if the gods of the waters have decided humans should be shown their place, I'm investigating that thing. So, Andrea Doria, Titanic. That whole thing. So, that's what happened with this one. 

This is entitled Listening to Roger Wallace's Crazy Love: [Note: Transcription format does not match print version of the poem in the book] 

“Each summer, 500 million 3-inch worms blackhead the pores of glacial faces. Scientists don't understand it. But don't call it crazy. Fascinating, scintillating. That's what you are. Worthy of study. But you've had the narrative arc all wrong. The main character, man or woman or water bear just dies. No cancer, no tragic falls, no consumption, no rickets. Not drunk. Just stops being and no one cares. At the corner of North 41 degrees, 43 minutes, 32 seconds, and West 49 degrees, 56 minutes, 49 seconds, there’s a room of velvet, brocade and satin, bespoke and liquid black symphony-full. Bodies, strings, organs, a cellist forearm in lunar tempo. No need to change the history. Of course they played while the ship dervished to the floor. A few are about to be re-wound and cold amnion, wouldn’t you want your last thoughts to be of the first time you realized you could please yourself with concentration, practice, and the movement of pressured fingers? Why does it have to be crazy? What if your blood is supposed to be blue? What if the connection between bone and tendon is supposed to be broken, bones dissolved, besotted, mal-unioned? What if sound only travels through a rictus of agonies? What if, just what if, you aren't supposed to come up for air?” 

Melinda: Beautiful. 

Prudence: Yeah. I'm such a nerd. (Laughter) Well, it took me a long time to find out the location of the Titanic. 

Melinda: Yes. Yeah. 

Prudence: Like to get the - and you'd think with our society's fascination with the Titanic - like to get the degrees and the like - but even then, every time I read, I always want to say hours and minutes. So I have to keep reminding myself it's minutes and seconds, because, even as a Texan - I shouldn't say that - even as a Texan, I have no sense of space, right? (Laughter) I have no sense of the size either. I just know that thing must be smaller than Texas, right? So when I think about, like, latitude and longitude, it's difficult for my brain to encompass the spaces of those things. So, like, there are minutes in between those? It was such a dive. Such a dive. 

Melinda: Literally. (Laughter) 

Prudence: Most people will find that in my work, it's water and space. Like, those two things I keep coming back to. Which is kind of the cover. When people look at the cover, their first response is like, “Oh, yeah. She loves space. That’s space”. It’s actually a remix of an image of bubbles underwater. So, it's like both of my favorite things coming together in that cover. 

Melinda: Yes. Beautiful. 

Prudence: I love it. I love it. 

Melinda: So are you're - that was kind of one of my questions. Like, you know, what is it that inspires your poems? And it sounds like maybe you come across an interesting fact and, you know, you kind of dive into that and see where it leads you. And how do we get from these, like, glacial worms, to the band playing as the Titanic goes down, right? 

Prudence: Yeah. It is absolute random facts. (Laughter) But it's a thing that's been with me since I was young. My parents had the encyclopedia set in our bedroom. And often - I mean, I can't emphasize how much of a nerd I am - often it would just be a random Saturday. And I would just pick a letter and just go digging into the encyclopedia. And now that I'm older, a writer, I take the random things that happen, and I write them down. I can keep track of those things, but it's, like, how do we make the flavor of the Cheeto dust? 

Melinda: Right. (Laughter) 

Prudence: Right. The weights of different oils. Like, I don't understand it, but I want to understand it. If it has a weight, how do we do that thing? And I get stuck on a thing because it is so random. And thankfully, I have a community that's used to that. Right. I reach out to the person that I think is the closest to whatever the piece of information is, and then they reach out to other people, because they know now. Like, “Oh - you’re doing something with this. It’s going to show up.” 

And if I can't find the piece of information, then it sits aside until I find it, and then the rest of that poem will flourish around it. So, I'm okay with the random searches because that's the inspiration of it, right? I'm often telling my students, we're so busy that we don't even catch when our brain points out that thing. 

Melinda: Yes. That’s so true. 

Prudence: Because our brain is always telling us, like, “What’s that? Did he just say that? Did she just do the thing?” Like, I let myself stop. So if you're with me, it's really odd until you learn, right? (Laughter) I'm listening to what's happening to those people or I'm mulling over the word choice that this person had, and I want to come back to it in some thing, because when I think about poetry as this study of, this approach to understanding human behavior, we have to be open to all of the little things that make us human, right? All the quirks about humanity. And so, I want to be there for that weird stuff. 

Melinda: Yeah. Well, and that's perfect because this podcast is about the intersections of creativity, psychology - so, the psychology within the poetry, and spirituality - and, I think, you know, one of the most important components of creativity is that curiosity. How do things work? Like, what is this phenomena? That urge to go and explore and delve deeper and find out. 

Prudence: Yeah. And I think, when I talk with people, and I tell them what I do, they go, “Oh, I'm not creative.“ Thank you for that. Yeah. Because you're not leaving yourself open to it? I mean, well, okay, so stepping back, our society has decided it's not really worth it to be creative. But giving yourself the ability. No, that's the wrong word. Giving yourself the capacity. No, wrong word. Hold on. Just giving in to the desire. 

Melinda: The permission. Giving yourself permission. We're all creative. We all have that potential. We all have the instrument. 

Prudence: Yeah. But I think since our society has decided to monetize it, the reaction is, “Well, if I can't make money off of it…” Like, to be clear… (Laughter) Because I love it. And I internalized a lot of my dad stuff like, “Oh, you can do the poetry on the side, but you got to get a job”. I get it. Our society requires this thing. I like having a roof over my head. I like eating. But it's that there's so many people missing so much of existence. And they're afraid to take that step. And so, I'm hoping that in my existence, they're willing to take the step. Even the simple thing, in my family birthdays, we call each other and we sing the worst version of the birthday song. (Laughter) Just off key, loud, right? I also throw in a dance. 

Melinda: Oh, I love this! 

Prudence: So it was my sister's birthday recently, and I'm, like, dancing in the parking - doing this whole thing. And people were looking away. I'm here celebrating another human. This is what we do, right? So, sure, it seems strange, but that's what inspiration is, right? It feels strange. And until you're willing to open yourself up to it, it's always going to feel shameful? It’s always going to feel like it's something that needs to be hidden. But the inspiration is going to come to us in the strangest places, so we have to be open to it. 

Melinda: And be open to the joy of it and the fun, and the play and the silliness. Right? 

Prudence: Yeah. Yeah. Because - because we have to. 

Melinda: Yeah. Because what's the alternative? 

Prudence: Yeah. Right. And then to find the way to then share it with others. Because I think that's the other thing - if we can't monetize the creativity, then it's not worthy of sharing with others? And, I mean, if nothing else, when we look at all the social media, like people just making funny videos and things. And people love that. I follow this fellow who, he’s got two huskies. Like, why would you do that to yourself? (Laughter) Like two. But that's kind of the thing of it. Two huskies. And you just watch the two huskies  - 

Melinda: Just talking to each other. (Laughter) 

Prudence: And that is the thing that we open ourselves up to. And so to get people to understand, like, that's the creativity of it, right? What is yours? What is your thing. That you can then share with others that allows us to all remember we're part of this fabric. We’re all connected in this thing. 

Melinda: Absolutely. And you know, there's many cultures outside of the US - like, I'm thinking of Ireland specifically - but I know throughout so many different places in the world, where there isn't the separation of either you're creative or you're not. Like, creativity is much more just a part of everyday life. And you could be a farmer and a poet, and there's nothing strange about that, you know? 

Prudence: Absolutely. And so, I'm hoping teaching creative writing, that I'm getting students to understand that. And, do I think they're all going to become writers who want to publish? No. But if I can put people in that space where they have opened their lives just a little bit… that they're making a choice to go do something that they wouldn't normally do, just for the experience of it, and they're bringing someone else along. That if we can all start to make that kind of opening. Because our shells are pretty tough, right? They are pretty tough. 

Melinda: Of course. And often for a good reason. 

Prudence: Sure. Right. Like, we have to exist. We have to make it through. But like, and make a little hatch. Just for a little bit of joy. Because wherever people are living, there are spaces to find that joy. If it feels like your life is too confined, there are always those spaces to find that joy. And so, I'm hoping that through work like mine that brings in the nerdy, that brings in this kind of investigation of that very specific way that people are realizing when they read it, that this is a way to live in life. That this kind of investigation is the thing that opens us up. 

Melinda: Yes. So that feels like a good opening for another poem. 

Prudence: Oh my gosh. Alright. So, this one - I think this one probably shows off my nerdiness a little bit more. I've - yeah, I'm just gonna read it. (Laughter) There's one thing I probably should explain. deCaires Taylor - a sculptor who puts his work on the ocean. And so then, marine life becomes incorporated into it. 

Melinda: That’s wonderful. 

Prudence: So this one's entitled Moving Gate. And so, if you have ever been in a school band or been adjacent to a school band, some of these things will connect with you. 

Moving Gate: [Note: Transcription format does not match print version of the poem in the book]  

“South Carolina joins the three states who've gone back to the use of a firing squad. Proclamation. Flattery, be-hypers us to no end and jagged parades. Our color guard of humanity dead sticks some of the execution. We glide-step when needed. Mark time, always. We declare ourselves uncogged from the machine, but still manage to queue for target practice in the grocery store. The quakes of our strings undulate past 73 kinds of cereal, 24 types of tampons, 50 types of pink salt. People have started saying ‘nuclear’ again. The young are afraid of work. The Gulf of Mexico is a sacred space. Its heartbeat plumbed daily. There aren't enough bodies there to compete with the Middle Passage. So, Disney implants statues on the ocean floor off the coast of Clearwater, like they're priceless deCaires Taylor’s. White sands, white faces. The world isn't that small for it to be true. They could instead sift the sands, raised the architecture. Salt water doesn't dissolve what we have grown in the marrow. Only burns. We have stripped away skin. It was all dumped. They were thirsty as they died with swollen tongue bones. Being lost is an event. Being dead deserves a gender reveal. We measure intervals at arm's length, and barrel rulers we watch like rats. They can't vomit. Those word promises. Mistaking their inherited inability for misery balm. Choke, roll. Flail. Choke. That's how we're supposed to die, right?” 

Melinda: So powerful. Right? 

Prudence: I've been thinking about representation. 

Melinda: Yes. As one might. (Laughter) 

Prudence: And this this poem comes from that, right? The images we see, the images we absorb. Because our world is so much more connected now in terms of, like, internet, TV, those kinds of things. And how we then take in those images. 

Melinda: And the erasures that are happening every day now. Yeah. 

Prudence: And trying to think of what stories last. And that's partly why I think about Disney, right. Like, when I lecture and I ask students like, “What's the story of Pocahontas?” And their immediate response is the Disney version. Hold on. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Okay. Right. 

Prudence: Back it up. Right. Like, Little Mermaid didn't really live happily ever after. And everyone goes, “Oh no!” So, it's been it's been on my mind, in particular since about 2015, how we represent ourselves. And how we see ourselves moving through different spaces. And so that’s where that one was coming from. 

Melinda: Yeah. So timely. Yeah. Thank you. 

Prudence: It's an interesting thing. I think when I wrote the poems in here, and a couple - 

Melinda: I feel like they were written yesterday. (Laughter) 

Prudence: I couple of them, I kept thinking like, “Oh, no one's going to - no one's going to get this.” Like, by the time I go through - if you don't know, it’s about a year or so, when you get your book accepted and then moves on. I thought, “Oh, well - that’s not going to mean anything. No one's going to…” 

Melinda: Yes. And now, it hits even more deeply. 

Prudence: Yeah. And so, I hope, in reading these poems, I hope that those who are feeling the same kind of hesitation, and the same kind of fear, they recognize it’s there. Like, it's echoing in all of us. Part of the blurb that has been going out about the book is - I point out, like, I thought I knew how to live. A black woman in Texas. I thought I knew how to live. I thought I knew what the rest of my life would look like. And then there was that great upset. And since then, I've been trying to figure out, how do I live? The perception of myself moving through this world. And that's where some of these poems are coming from. Like, suddenly finding the ground shifting. 

Melinda: Yes, absolutely. 

Prudence: Because I'd already known - like, okay, it's going to move a little bit. Like, I’m ready for a little bit of movement. And then to find whole pieces of it. 

Melinda: Yeah. And day by day, and moment by moment, you know, nothing is certain. 

Prudence: And to still try and find life and inspiration in it. To still delight in the things that you can. And that. 

Melinda: So, how do you work with your students? Like, the students that are in your poetry classes, you know, in this particular moment in time. How are you, kind of talking to them about these things? 

Prudence: I ask them what they're feeling. So, the creative writing space is a bit different from composition and literature. The students coming into creative writing spaces know, we're talking about ourselves. So, sure, in poetry, there may be a mask of the “I”. In fiction, you're going to create a character. But we are studying human behavior. And, if you aren't investigating human behavior, then your writing about it is going to be false. It's not going to be authentic. So, I ask them how they're doing. And I ask them what they're thinking about. And I show them, these are the things. There’s a poem that comes out of fear, there’s a poem that comes out of worry. And what are the things you connect to it? 

What are the things that you're holding on to while you're in that state of worry and that state of fear? And that's really what I'm looking at, right? Like, if I could take the fear away from you right now, what are you thinking about? If you're thinking about lunch, fine. What's the food you're thinking about? Okay, now let's reintroduce the fear. What changes about that lunch? What changes about how you get the lunch? About how you eat the lunch, how quickly you eat - all of those things. Because we keep living, we have to keep moving through it. And all of those emotions are hitting us all the time. It's just fear takes up a lot more space, right? 

Melinda: Yes. And creative expression is a way of working with and working through, and sharing and communicating, so that it's not just all kind of in here, right? 

Prudence: Because it's really easy to let the fear shut it all down. I think, for many people - like when Covid shut down the world - for many creative people, we shut down. Because we were so afraid. And it took a while for creative people to like, “Oh, here - I can do a concert in my home. I can do a reading…” Like, all of those things that we started to make that connection of… like getting back to people. But everything pulled in. And so, when we're carrying this huge bag, only, I think it's like a steamer truck now. (Laughter) But we're carrying this huge bag of fear or worry or anxiety, we forget to keep ourselves open to those things. 

And so, I want to show my students that I can move through a space where I am afraid - well, to be clear, there's always a low level for a black woman - so, there’s always that thing. So that's been part of my understanding about life. Because I mean, if we're children of history, right? Like, I'm not that far removed from the war states of Black America. So there's always been a little bit of that that's carried with me. 

To then see it kind of amplified, I want to show my students, that this thing can still be there, but you can still experience the world. And then share that. Because there's someone else out there who's too afraid to speak. And what you're writing is going to make a connection to them. And hopefully crack that open a little bit. Right? 

Melinda: Yes. 

Prudence: Give them the space to breathe. 

Melinda: And to say you’re not alone.

Prudence: And so, that's what I want to do in a creative writing space. Whether it's a one day workshop or a 16 week course, it is to create community as quickly as I can. And the best way to do that is to like, “How are you feeling?” And I mean, I go through my life with this kind of, “Do I give the polite societal answer or do I give the real answer?” (Laughter) And it’s kind of a - 

Melinda: And it’s a pertinent question right now. 

Prudence: Yeah. Like, do you just want the polite answer? I can push the button on the robot and, “Oh, it's great. It's a wonderful day.” Or do you want the real human answer? Do you have time for that thing? And we don't always have time, we don't always make time. And so, I want people to know we can make time for each other. So, “What are you feeling today?” And from there, then we can talk about the creative because we have to be honest with our emotions and where we're standing at that particular moment, in order to do something good with our stuff. And I shouldn’t say good. In order to create. 

Melinda: In order to create. Yeah. Beautiful. It’s quite similar to how I'm approaching - I mean, obviously students are quite concerned right now about what's going to happen: financial aid, education, all of this - and I usually start all of my sessions (I teach virtually) - but I start with just a little bit of grounding and then just a check in. Like, “How is everybody doing?” You know, and it’s so important. 

Prudence: Yeah. Because you have to. I do a version of - we do like seven minutes of writing. And I just give random prompts. Because you need to get out of that thing. 

Melinda: Yeah. And just get the juices flowing. 

Prudence: Yeah. Even coming here today, like, I made sure to not - I didn't scroll through my socials. (Laughter) Because it was like, I want to be present in the creative space here with you. And not think about anything else that could be happening, right. When we leave here - pulling it out, because I want to know where we're going in the world. Because it is a check in. A prompt that I give sometimes is - I steal, I appropriate - paint squares from like, Home Depot or Lowe’s. “Just close your eyes”. And I put a little thing in front of them. “Open your eyes and just write about the color. Just write about the color.” Because it's a color you might not encounter. Just write about the color. 

Melinda: Yeah. Whatever comes up. 

Prudence: Yeah. Because that is a check in. All the other stuff doesn't matter. I'm just focused on this square of, I don't know, hot pink. And what does that hot pink make me think of? Because it gets too easy to allow all of the sound to come in. 

Melinda: Yeah. And it's important to just carve out whatever space we can, because there's so much information coming in from the world. And so many demands, and just so many distractions. Just having that space, just to work. Just to create. Yeah. Even if it's a seven minute prompt, you know. 

Prudence: Yeah. Just give yourself the space. 

Melinda: Yeah. So, do you have another poem? 

Prudence: I do. I do. I was thinking about the astronauts who finally made it home. And it's really funny because everyone's been like, “Oh my gosh. What would it be like to be stuck up there for nine months?” And, I'm not a crier. (Laughter) But I'm pretty sure, I feel like there is some crying. Like, we still can't go home. But what I wouldn't give - which I say in the poem - like, what I wouldn't give to to be there - 

Melinda: To have that experience. 

Prudence: Yeah. I always wanted to be in space. I always wanted to be. But math is hard. (Laughter) So, I was not going to get past any of those things. 

Melinda: What about artists in space? (Laughter) 

Prudence: Yeah. And that’s kind of my thing, right? People often ask - which I think is really kind of disturbing - they often ask, “What happens if this teaching thing falls through?” “Do you know something I don't know, right now? (Laughter) And so I often say, you know, like, “Oh, I'd love to go back…” and like, I list all the things from when I was youn. But a friend pointed out to me, NASA doesn't have a poet laureate. Like, so, Ada Limón has a poem that’s gone out and they're poems that are kind of free-floating and move, but like, wouldn't it be great - 

Melinda: It would be amazing. 

Prudence: - to be a part of NASA. 

Melinda: Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, maybe someone out there is listening. (Laughter) 

Prudence: I hope so. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah. We’ve got a contender! 

Prudence: Alright. So this is entitled NASA Needs Poets: [Note: Transcription format does not match print version of the poem in the book]  

“What I wouldn't give for the chance to sail the void. I'd let myself get yard, learn more languages. I'm already fluent in English and grief. Learn how to vomit in a bag to shield myself from too much light. I've trained my whole life to live in confined space. But I'll settle for being the first to talk up the musky promises of Terran land under Grand Canyon red martian skies. Debate on CNN which atmosphere is most toxic, Venus or Earth? Oh, to be a meteorologist of Jupiter. Surely I can be right 30% of the time. Stargazer that I am, a title, a name tag, even where I’m naked. I'm sure, I should know names and distances, but I'll gladly quilt degrees and magnitudes on the inside of my eyelids. I'll start every poem with the image of the star eating black hole, burping 4 million tons of life stuff, silently shouting heartbeats and future tense. Truly, I was born with an understanding of the subtleties of darkness and a need to know. Can you see hate from space? I want to proclaim the truth of dark matter. Yes. So your Lord said, “Let there be light.” But there is so much more that it's a dark, terrifyingly simple. Not knowing what is true North, other than what we've said of we have been wrong again. To be the harbinger of our savage hunger when we make it to Europa and taint its amniotic seas, extoll the paths of dark energy that weave through the light, making highways, making signposts we should follow. Does it matter what Pluto is if we don't know what we are?McKay. McKay whispers revelations in my ears. You'll see. They'll want me to be on the payroll as we expand into the never ending, never ending, never ending. Never.” 

Melinda: Beautiful. 

Prudence: Thank you.

Melinda: I'm really struck by the way you start, just so specifically. Just the descriptive language, and then, "Ooh!” 

Prudence: Yeah. I put a lot in. (Laughter) 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. 

Prudence: I put a lot in. A friend said in one of the poems, “I feel like my neck hurts.” (Laughter) So that's good. Because I want you to see the thing. Right? Because they're all happening. I want you to see the things. 

Melinda: Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. So, you have - so, is your book, widely available now? 

Prudence: It is widely available now at your local bookseller, should you ask them to carry it. But, yeah, it's available through the press website. It’s out there, and I'm excited. Like I said, I'm excited for people to read them. 

Melinda: Great. And you have your official book release on April 3rd, correct? 

Prudence: Yes. April 3rd. 

Melinda: At BookPeople, here in Austin. 

Prudence: Yes. 

Melinda: Okay, wonderful. 

Prudence: And then I don't know what else is on my calendar because I am on spring break right now. 

Melinda: Yeah. No worries. (Laughter) 

Prudence: So I've forgotten everything else on my calendar. 

Melinda: Well, that kind of leads me into - so, if people want to learn more about your work and about what you're up to, what's the best way for them to find you? 

Prudence: Follow me on the socials. I’m on Instagram and on the book of faces. And that's the best way. 

Melinda: Okay. So we'll definitely put links in the show notes. 

Prudence: Thank you so much. 

Melinda: And then, I usually like to end each episode with what I call a Creativity Pro Tip, which is something that people can go out and try on their own, whether they're a poet or not. But I love some of the prompts that you mentioned. And so, maybe somebody who hasn't delved so much into poetry, but what would be a way to put their toe into the process? 

Prudence: I think, the easiest way to get into poetry - go for a list. Go for a list. Because we do them all the time. We’re always doing them. And it doesn't matter what you're listing, right? Grocery. Home Depot. I don't know, what you need to do to fix your car. And then thinking about what's underneath each of those. Like, why do you have to have that specific brand of potato chip? Whose favorite is it and why is it that person's favorite? Why is it that you no longer get the whole milk and instead you get the almond milk, right? Like, what's happening in that space? Because, I may be the only person who thinks this, but there's beauty in someone's grocery cart. 

Melinda: Of course. You can tell a lot about someone - (Laughter) 

Prudence: And it works for poets that were fiction writers. We meet someone through that grocery cart. And I think that's a good step into it. Like, who’d you meet today in that cart? Who'd you meet in that space? So, yeah, I think that would be the thing. It's an easy step in there, because you've got a list lying around somewhere. And just think about each of those items. Why are they there? What does each item mean for someone? 

Melinda: I love that because I often use the metaphor with, if you're a sculptor, you have a block of marble, you have your raw materials. But as writers, we have to create our own raw materials. So that seems to me a brilliant way of going about it. 

Prudence: Because it’s just there. And there's not much effort from you. You just walk up to someone's cart - I mean, obviously, (Laughter), don’t get too close - but just looking at that cart. Ooh. I just thought about this: your shopping cart online. 

Melinda: Yeah. What's in there? 

Prudence: Yeah. Like, all of those things - are those things from the you now? 

Melinda: Or the you last week? (Laughter) 

Prudence: And if they're from the you from last week, what was going on with that you from last week? 

Melinda: What was that need or what was that desire? 

Prudence: Exactly. Right. And investigate that. Because I think so much of this is like, people argue, "I don't have the right language for it. I'm not poetic. I could never write.” You're living the story every day. 

Melinda: And you have the language. You have the words. 

Prudence: It's you. Your voice is the story, and it's necessary. We all need to hear it. We all need to know what the experience is. 

Melinda: Yes. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Prudence. This has been such a pleasure. 

Prudence: Thanks for having me. 

Melinda: And looking forward to reading more of your work. 

Prudence: I've got a copy for you! 

Melinda: Oh. Thank you! I'm so excited because I was looking around for - I couldn't find, like, an electronic version - but now I get to have the hard copy. 

Prudence: Yes. 

Melinda: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. 

Prudence: Of course. Thanks for having me. 

Melinda: Find and connect with us on YouTube and social media under Syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review. We're recording today at Record ATX Studios in Austin, live in person with Prudence today. The podcast is produced in collaboration with Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios. Thanks so much for being with us, and see you next time.