The Syncreate Podcast: Empowering Creativity
Welcome to Syncreate, where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology, and spirituality. Our goal is to demystify the creative process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative.
Creativity. It’s a word we throw around all the time, but what does it really mean? On the Syncreate Podcast, we share stories of the creative journey. We talk to changemakers, visionaries and everyday creatives working in a wide array of fields and disciplines. Our goal is to explore creativity in all its facets, and to gain a better understanding of the creative process – from imagination to innovation and everything in between.
The Syncreate Podcast is hosted by Melinda Rothouse, PhD. She helps individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life through coaching, consulting, workshops, retreats, and now, this podcast. She's written two books on creativity, including Syncreate: A Guide to Navigating the Creative Process for Individuals, Teams, and Communities (winner of a Silver Nautilus Award for Creativity and Innovation), with Charlotte Gullick. She's also a musician (singer-songwriter and bass player) and photographer based in Austin, Texas.
The Syncreate Podcast: Empowering Creativity
Episode 81: Creativity and Innovation in Medicine with Drs. Behrooz Akbarnia, Greg Mundis, and Bahar Shahidi
This episode features three medical innovators working at the intersection of orthopedic surgery, medical technology, and orthopedic research at the San Diego Spine Foundation (SDSF), Scripps Clinic, and the University of California San Diego (UCSD).
Dr. Akbarnia is the Founder of the SDSF and former president of the Scoliosis Research Society, as well as a retired clinical professor and orthopedic surgeon. He developed an innovative, minimally invasive magnetic device for the treatment for pediatric scoliosis, eliminating the need for multiple surgeries.
Dr. Mundis is the current president of the SDSF, as well as an orthopedic spine surgeon specializing in deformities of the cervical, thoracic and lumbar spine for pediatric and adult patients.
Dr. Shahidi is an associate professor and researcher in the Department of Orthopedic Surgery at UCSD.
Our conversation focuses on creativity and innovation in clinical practice, the development of new treatment protocols and technologies, and medical research.
For our Creativity Pro-Tip, we encourage young people interested in the field of medicine to pursue their passions, explore interests outside their main field of study, and to focus your creativity on breaking new ground and making a positive impact in the world.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in Episode 58: Creative Problem Solving with BEST Robotics’ Michael Steiner, Episode 77: Collaborate, Innovate, Advocate with Beth Sundstrom, PhD, Episode 62: The Neuroscience of Creativity with Dr. Indre Viskontas.
At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. If you have an idea for a project or a new venture, and you’re not sure how to get it off the ground, find us at syncreate.org. Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your creative goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools, and coaching, including a monthly creativity coaching group, to help you bring your work to the world.
Episode-specific hyperlinks:
Dr. Shahidi’s Faculty Profile at UCSD
Show / permanent hyperlinks:
Melinda: Creativity and community are absolutely vital in challenging times. Welcome to Syncreate, a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to create. Our goal is to demystify the process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. We talk with visionaries and change makers, and everyday creatives working in a wide range of fields and media - from the arts to science, technology and business.
We aim to illuminate the creative process - from imagination to innovation, and everything in between. I'm Melinda Rothouse, and I help individuals and organizations bring their dreams and visions to life. At Syncreate, we’re here to support your creative endeavors. So, if you have an idea for a project or a new venture - anything from a book, to a piece of music, to a new business idea - please reach out to us. We're here to support you to get it off the ground. You can find us at syncreate.org.
Our book, also called Syncreate, walks you through the stages of the creative process so you can take action on your goals. We also offer resources, creative process tools and coaching to help bring your work to the world, including a 2025 monthly coaching group. You can find out more about all of that at syncreate.org.
So today, I am very delighted to have three distinguished guests on the show. We have Doctor Behrooz Akbarnia (MD), who's the founder of the San Diego Spine Foundation. He's a pioneer and innovator in the field of scoliosis treatment and research. We have Doctor Greg Mundis (MD), who's an orthopedic surgeon at the Scripps Clinic and also the president of the San Diego Spine Foundation, and Doctor Bahar Shahidi (PhD), who's a professor in orthopedic surgery and researcher at the University of California, San Diego. So, today on the show, we're going to be talking about creativity and innovation in medicine.
So, I wanted to have you all together today to talk about creativity and innovation in medicine. And, you know, last summer, y'all kindly invited me to come speak at the Bridging The Gap Conference that you hold every year. And I just remember when I got up to present, you know, in a room full of physicians and med device folks, I started off with the question, “How many people here consider themselves creative?”
And only about three people in the whole room raised their hand. And so I thought, “Well, this is interesting…” because I see the work that you're all doing as incredibly creative and innovative. But why is it that by and large, you all don't see yourselves that way? And I think you three may be an exception to that.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): We were the three that raised our hands. (Laughter)
Melinda: Yeah, exactly! Exactly. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, you know, why physicians don't necessarily see themselves as creative?
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): So, I think a lot of it comes down to how we're trained. I think many feel like they go down a very specific scientific pathway. And as a result, there's a lot of conditioned responses, things that we feel may not elicit the idea of creativity. Because there's so many conditioned responses. If you have these types of symptoms, then you have this diagnosis. If you have this problem, you need this operation.
And perhaps we don't assume the identity of creativity in that environment. But I do think it's a complete farce, because nothing could be more creative than to try to have to elicit from a patient, in their own words, what's going on.
Melinda: Yeah.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): To be able to pivot, and to change, and to shift, and to gain understanding of what the actual problem is takes a tremendous amount of creativity, because everyone's created differently and everyone communicates differently. And we have to figure out what each other's saying and what expectations are for us to get to the right outcome at the end of this.
Melinda: Yeah - that's such a great point. You know, even in making a diagnosis, right? And I've heard you all speak about how patient outcomes can vary just depending on the person because we aren't all exactly the same. And one person can respond to a particular treatment or intervention a certain way and another one very differently. So, there's certainly creativity involved in assessing that, and then figuring out how to treat people appropriate to that.
And I know Doctor Akbarnia - you are an incredible innovator in the field of spine and scoliosis treatment and research. You've developed a number of incredibly (to my eye) innovative technologies and treatments for spine disorders. So, do you see yourself as creative in that sense?
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): I think - thank you again for having this podcast. I agree with Greg that we really didn't see ourselves or any, you know, medical profession - probably doesn’t because we were told to do things the way we were taught. And after listening to you, I have a different perspective, and I think we do it every time you see a patient. Every time, regardless, we are just a practitioner or we are in academic setting and try to teach. And those are all the times that - we were in a conference this morning, and there was a few ideas about that patient as a problem. So any solution is creative. And, so I think, I now see it much more than I used to see it.
I think examples of what you said about innovation. So, you see a problem, and then you look for a solution, and how you find that solution depends on your background, your creativity, and looking, and getting all the things together. For instance, you know, Greg and I were involved in treating very young patients with scoliosis, and we found to research that - the heart has helped us a great deal - that if you do too many surgeries, you know, to lengthen these rods, that to match the growth, we have more complications.
Melinda: Yeah.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): And so, there just happened to have a technology that was used for some other things - you know, just weight loss and so on - say well, this is a magnetic device that could do this lengthening remotely. So then we don't have to take the patient all the time. So, yeah let's try it. And we finally were able to make that a procedure. And so, every step is a creation of new ideas, and hopefully we’ll try to keep your mind open and things will develop.
Melinda: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Wonderful. And as you mentioned, Doctor A, I know the three of you really bridge the academic side, the research side, and the clinical side of things. And working with patients, developing treatments (all this kind of things), so maybe - I know, Behar, you are primarily a researcher in the field of spine and orthopedics - and I think between the three of you, you've probably published hundreds, if not thousands of articles on various topics related to orthopedics and spine. And so, Behar, I'm curious, you know, from the more academic side of things, how do you see the creativity in your work?
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): Well, there's a few different things. I think a lot of what we're talking about is semantics. Where, you know, sometimes when we ask people what they think about creativity - in each one of these fields, we talk about it with different words - but it's still kind of the same thing.
Melinda: Yes.
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): So, for example, if you ask somebody if they practice the science of medicine, they would probably say yes. And if you also asked a given physician or practitioner if they practice the art of medicine, they probably would also, most of them, say yes.
Melinda: Yes.
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): And then, I feel like creativity lies within the art of medicine and the intersection between the art and science of medicine. And the same things are evident in research. Where the creativity in research oftentimes comes from the intersection of what has happened in the history of a given area. Trying to leverage prior work and prior innovation and prior ideas within your area, or applying things from outside of your area to a new population or to a new concept.
And those are creative ideas and concepts as well. And I think that's all kind of this mix of art and science related to any given topic. And so, I think it goes back to, people identify as being creative, but they just use different words for what it is that we do. And people don't recognize that that's still all creativity.
Melinda: Yeah, for sure. So in this podcast, I feel like I spend a lot of time kind of debunking some of the myths around creativity. Like, only certain people are creative or you have to be an artist to be creative. And that's why I love to talk to people across so many different fields and disciplines, because there is creativity and innovation everywhere, including in science, as you noted.
But I'm curious because you all with the San Diego Spine Foundation, you're involved with - you have a wonderful fellowship program. And so, you train physicians and you do a lot of mentoring. And so, I'm curious, you know, in the fellowship program and then in the training work that you do for physicians, is creativity and innovation something you emphasize? Maybe not explicitly, but how do you help foster that for up-and-coming physicians?
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): That's a great question. I do think that we do. You're right - we probably don't use the words creativity and innovation. We probably don't use them enough, honestly. (Laughter)
We probably should. Because it'll allow them to understand that there's a freedom that we have in our profession, right? A freedom to create. But we do - like, for instance, if you have a patient that comes in that needs a scoliosis reconstruction, or they walk really pitched forward and we're trying to get them to stand upright - there’s a lot of planning that has to go into that process. And we use software that we're able to individually recognize each bone, and then we can reshape the spine virtually without them - without the patient having to experience that yet.
So we can kind of model many different ways to get a desired spine shape, for instance. And then, from there we can make an actual surgical plan. To the point where we actually, you know, in essence, create the shape that we're trying to for the patient. And then a rod is then actually manufactured very specific just to that one single patient. I always tell patients, the way their profile is standing up is almost like a fingerprint. It's unique to them. And we're trying to find that sweet spot of what is actually perfect for them. And then we're trying to create that in the operating room.
So, I do think that we, you know, through this process of planning, we are actually, instilling the concept of being creative and understanding. You know, what are the limits that you have to work with? Because every patient has sort of different parameters that that we have to take into account.
Melinda: Yeah.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): On the creative side, the other thing I always say is, I love the planning part because it’s - to me - it’s a little bit of more of the science - but in the operating room, that's our canvas. Like, that's where we get to paint. That's where we get to sculpt, where we get to create, you know? And I do think a lot of artists do the same thing. You know, they sketch out an outline, and then before you ever put any color on it, you kind of have an idea of what that's going to look like, on what medium you're using, you know, etc. And for us, it's a little bit the same thing as we're doing this planning. And then in the operating room, we're actually doing the creating.
Melinda: Yeah. Because unexpected things happen, right? And you have to adjust in the moment on the fly. Yeah.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): I think - that’s one of the examples of that, I think. The creativity becomes more in line with the path of learning because when the fellow or the resident just comes in, we try to teach them principles, and then as they learn more, show them that they can be creative. But they also have some limits, so you don't want to be too creative. (Laughter)
Melinda: Right.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): Yeah. You know, you have to reuse those principle of safety and sometimes, there's no way. And if you feel that this make sense, then you go another step further. I remember, you know, the time that with Ramin - we were doing a case and it’s not supposed to, you know - technique doesn't say that you have to cut a ligament, for instance, but there was no other way to treat, and so you said, “Well, as long as we try to be safe, we can sort of break the rules and be creative.”
And that became a procedure that would bring the alignment of the spine properly. So, you have to be, you know, within that frame, so you always keep the interest and safety of the patient first.
Melinda: Yeah. That brings up actually a really interesting question. Because in the last several episodes that I've done, the topic of failure has come up in relation to creativity - that you have to be willing to fail, you have to be willing to take risks - and that's certainly an important part of creativity, because there is a lot of trial and error. But when you're working with a living, breathing human being on the operating table, you know, failure is not really an option.
And yet, sometimes things happen and you have to adapt, and sometimes something really new and innovative comes out of just doing what you have to do in the moment.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): You know, the military is a great example of that. You know, war is horrible, but the medical advancements that are made during during war times are really phenomenal. I mean, even now to the point where we're trying to use neural networks to allow paralyzed men and women to walk again.
Melinda: That’s amazing.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): And that would never happen without a lot of the mass casualties that we see. So, you're right, sometimes tragedy spurs creativity.
Melinda: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): Now we have more tools to be creative .
Melinda: Yes. Yeah. How is AI coming in? I noticed one of you at least, published - Greg was it you? - a recent article about something AI related to medicine in practice. So, how is AI coming into your lives, in your work?
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): Yeah - it’s making its way in there. You know, we did a really cool study looking at patients that came in through the trauma unit, that broke their backs. And what we did is, we had the radiologist report, and then we had an AI algorithm kind of interpret what the findings were, and then make a decision on whether or not surgery was indicated or whether they should be treated without surgery.
And it was very accurately predictable, because we compared that to what the surgeons ended up doing. So, based on what the surgeons felt was right. We call that the gold standard. AI within, I think - it was really just within one case - was able to predict, what we're doing. The other interesting thing was they then interpreted the radiology report into language that patients could understand.
So much better than what we're having our patients read on our portals, right? You know, it's medical jargon and mumbo jumbo. And then what AI spits out is really accurate and actually very much readable for our patients.
Melinda: Yeah. That's amazing.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): Behar has another experience with that in another study.
Melinda: Yeah. Tell us Behar.
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): Yeah. I mean, I think AI is definitely worth so much more of it in the scientific realm and in the research realm. And it's, you know, in our hands, I would say that we use it a little bit more as an analytical tool, as opposed to some of these broader applications. And I think, examples of what we've done with it is used it as an analytical tool to try to - you know, there are so many individual factors that play into why a given patient is going to respond a certain way to a given technique, or a set of techniques or a care trajectory.
And it’s almost impossible to be able to predict with the analytical or traditional analytical tools how to incorporate any individual one of those factors and what the driving factor is for that patient. And that's where machine learning and AI have become very helpful tools to really integrate and synthesize a lot of information, and tear it down to what the most meaningful modifiable factor is that we can focus on, to try to level up our practice in order to make the patient's outcomes better.
The challenge with AI is the consumability. And, I think that that's - AI in many cases is a black box, and if we don't know how we got to a certain end point, it's very hard to go back and say, “Well, these are the dials that we need to turn in order to improve what we're looking for.”So it's a tool, but it has its own limitations, for sure.
Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. I'll be curious to see how things continue to evolve that way as the AI technologies continues to improve and, yeah, it’s a fascinating area of study. But certainly a great way to work with vast amounts of information and complexity and that kind of thing. So, another kind of piece of the puzzle that I wanted to explore a little bit with you all today - obviously, in the current political administration, we're seeing a lot of changes happening with the way that scientific research is funded, and I know there are a lot of concerns about how that's going to play out.
And so, I'm curious from that funding perspective, because so much of the work you do is funded through various government grants and things like that. So, how is that impacting you all kind of on a day-to-day basis at the moment? And how are you digesting all of that?
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): I think Bahar can probably - (Laughter)
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): Yeah. Bahar - you’re up! (Laughter)
Melinda: Yeah.
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): I mean, it's a very tricky question. I think that it's institution specific. I can't speak directly on behalf of, you know, our institution - it's a big operation. But my thoughts on the matter are, you know, we are going to need to be very adaptable and innovative in this space in order to be able to stay successful. I think that we really have no idea. I say we - I mean, I don't know what's going to happen - it's a lot, there's a lot of uncertainty around the federal funding environment and whether the current situation is going to either resolve, or be tempered, or if it's going to continue to escalate.
And so, I think that we're all kind of thinking about alternative strategies to stay afloat. And that means that, you know, probably (in my mind) some avenues for that are going to be leaning more heavily on philanthropy, leaning more heavily on foundations that aren't federally backed. And there's pros and cons to that.
Melinda: Sure.
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): Because the federal funding environment has a very standardized way of going about things, and people know the system. People that are involved in submitting and getting grants within that system, they know how it works. I would argue it's a very unbiased system, in general. Whereas philanthropic and foundation based funding sources have inherent biases associated with what it is they're trying to accomplish and who's interested in what.
It's very - it's a much smaller group of people that are making decisions in that space. So, I would envision that there's going to be a lot more interpersonal socialization in order to help facilitate. And a diversification of funding portfolios in people (or for people) that are wanting to make science successful or continue their lines of work in these areas. But, we really just don't know. It’s so hard to read the tea leaves at the moment. It changes every day.
Melinda: Of course. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But that does bring up a question. Like, I don't know, maybe just in your own experience, sort of what percentage of the funding you receive comes from federal grants versus philanthropy or other private sources, corporate sources?
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): I would say that's - honestly, that's an investigative specific answer.
Melinda: Yeah.
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): There are a lot of people that have - 100% of their funding is from industry, and that's just because the topic of their research and their expertise is amenable to that funding environment - whereas people with more time and, you know, basic and mechanistic research, tend to be more supported by federal funding mechanisms because that is the key priority of that body.
Whereas, it's too early for industry to be really interested in those types of - not in every case, but oftentimes the federally funded work provides the foundation for industry to pick up where they find something from what this foundational work has done, and then they grab it and they say, “This, you know, has some some legs, and we want to provide some additional support for it.”
And oftentimes, the philanthropic or foundational types of funding sources are more of like, once you get past both of those levels, you're now into clinical impact - and at least in biomedical research you’re into clinical impact - and you're into trying to identify patient specific large scale implementation types of approaches. And so, I think it just depends on where you as a scientist have your expertise, and the topic matter that's amenable to these different funding sources.
Melinda: Yeah, sure. That makes sense. Of course. Doctor A?
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): I think another way to probably overcome that is collaboration. And that has been done by working with other institutions and trying to share some of their resources. And, I think that has also other advantages as well. But collaboration and communication, is not just in getting the expenses down and so on, but just looking at and visiting other centers, other countries, other specialties, you can in your mind see, “What are the things that I can use in my field?”
And that has happened many times over my career that, you know, you walk into an operating room that a thoracic surgeon, for instance, is doing a case. I said, “Well, he’s using this, you know, this instrument… that, I probably can use in the nerve root or whatever.” And that encourages, you know - and I never thought that was creative, but now I know (laughs) - that could be. So, I think, you know, collaboration in general, networking, and the working together, I think, increases this sort of willingness and ability to be creative.
Melinda: Yeah. I think that's so important. I'm so glad you brought up collaboration, because I think your work with the San Diego Spine Foundation is a real wonderful example of that. You established the foundation, you partnered with UCSD, with Scripps, with many other organizations and individuals to advance understanding of spine research and clinical practice. So, could you speak a little bit to how you established those different collaborations?
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): I try to be bridging the gap. (Laughter)
Melinda: There you go! Love it.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): So, Greg - you want to elaborate?
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): Oh - I mean, I'm sure, Doctor A probably has the best historical context relative to SDSF, but, you know, I kind of have this fundamental belief that all problems and all good things in life stem from two things, which are relationship and communication.
Melinda: Yes.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): And I would say that collaborations or partnerships or something very similar is you find people that share common goals, a common mission and vision to - for instance, what SDSF has - and, you know, Bahar, being on on this podcast is a great example of it and we for now have years of collaboration. Where we have a very similar mission and vision as it relates to improving patient care. And then you grab that relationship, you start communicating a little bit more, and next thing you know, we've developed a very meaningful bank of data, between UCSD and Scripps, for instance.
And that's extraordinarily meaningful. But, there's other collaborations that happen in town. And whether that's with the other entities like Children's Hospital or Schwab or Kaiser, the cool thing is that our fellowship (which is sort of at the core of what we do) - I mean, we send surgeons out all over and we have graduates at UCSD. We have graduates at Kaiser and all around the city.
And I think that's sort of part of that collaborative network. And that's both on the clinical side and then as you can see, also on the academic side. I know Behar has led a big collaborative effort, even within institutions within San Diego, looking at just our ability to do research with one another. And we've been working on publishing that paper. It just shows that it is very doable when you get people that have a common mission and vision, and you’re able to create together.
Melinda: Yeah. It’s amazing what can come out of that. So, you mentioned the fellowship program, and I’m keeping an eye on the time here, but maybe to sort of close out the conversation, coming back around to this idea of education and training. So, based on all of your experiences, clinically in academia with the foundation and so forth, I'm curious - are there ways that you might better train physicians (even students in med school) to kind of open up their eyes about the creativity and innovation that they will be utilizing in their careers as physicians?
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): I think our effort obviously is more on the postgraduate and fellowship level. So, I think it’s a very important part because that's where exactly the real way and pathway is determined. But you're right. I think that should be - the seeds should be planted right from the beginning - even at the time of primary schools, high schools and university, and college education - I think that definitely is the best way to develop this.
I think our fellowship in the San Diego Spine Foundation, we - when I moved here from St. Louis, I stopped the fellowship for a few years to be able to have the foundation and the resources. And not only the patients, but for education, for research, for things that is needed to train the spine surgeons. And this developed gradually. So you have to have the means to be able to fully educate with a quality education.
And I think this has come from one fellow that - our first fellow was being half a year in hip surgery and half a year in spine surgery. Now we have four fellows. And we have neurosurgeons, orthopedic surgeons, visitors, and so on. So, it’s been really starting to develop and provide an environment where they can be fully trained. So, it's a lot of work. (Laughter)
Melinda: Of course. Yeah.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): Now, he is in charge and, you know, he sleeps with the mind of, “What else could be done?” And then, you have to be able to adapt to changes. So, sometimes it's hard for me to see some of the things that is changing. But I know it's for the better. So I'm really enjoying it.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): I’ll add to that. I think, you know, our brains - if they live in fear and if there's anxiety and stress, right - we all see how creativity starts to suffer, right? Give an author a bad - a harsh deadline. If it doesn't just start to flow, they get writer's block, right? The pressure of having to put something on paper… the product doesn't end up very well, right?
So, the problem with our current system is that, “You better get really good grades in high school. You better get really good grades in college. Then once you get into medical school, to get really good grades there. Because if you don't get these numbers on these boards, and this and this, you're not going to the specialty that you want….” for instance. And so, I think a lot of that stress actually stifles some of that creative spirit here, unfortunately.
And a lot of people - it's so much stress, over so much time - it's hard to regain that creative element that led them into this world of medicine to begin with. So, I do think we need to think about that. I'm not saying it's wrong to have stressors. I think it's important for growth and it's how you get better. But too much of it can lead to the opposite, right?
Melinda: Yes.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): Which is the polar other end. I will say that the medical school I went to is at the University of Missouri, Columbia. And they took a chance on their education model. And this is like 1999 to 2003. And they, along with Harvard and the University of New Mexico, implemented this thing called problem-based learning. And we're only three medical schools doing it where it went away from sitting in a classroom and just like studying books.
And it went to clinical vignettes that started on a Monday. And by Friday, you had to figure out what's wrong with the patient. And we had a group of eight students. And we had to sit there and be creative about all the different elements that could happen, the basic science of it, the pharmacology of it, the treatments of that. And that did spur on a lot of creativity and really took the stress level down a really good notch. Allowed us to just learn how to think.
At the end of the day, what we're really in charge of doing is helping these students of medicine learn how to think better. And the fellowship model where we're at, we're kind of at the tail end of that. So it's hard to really modify things too much to be able to contribute to that model. But I will say, I mean, even now (this year), I'm working on creating the San Diego Spine Foundation’s leadership lecture series throughout the year, because we don't have anything formal for the fellows to realize the influence and leadership they can have in their community.
And we have to educate that - so there's still this pliability and mold-ability that we have in our training programs to allow us to teach creativity and innovation. And it's really - I think it's really critical to the long term success of what we do - to avoid burnout and to live a joyful life.
Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. I love that example. And it seems like you’re really getting in there and figuring out - like, trying to solve a real world problem is a good foundation for creativity. And I know, Behar, you were going to share something as well.
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): Yeah. I think, you know, at our institution, I'm involved a little bit on the medical school side of things. And so, there is an effort to try to incorporate some of these skills related to more critical thinking, earlier. I also feel like there’s - the more exposure early to different and unique skill sets outside of - because I think, what’s happening, as Greg mentioned, people are so pressurized to get really good grades in their academic track, so they narrow their aperture substantially compared to the people that have the capacity and the latitude to explore different things.
Like, “If I want to be a doctor, I have to really hone in on this one skill really early on in a very stressful and pressurized way.” As opposed to experiencing that and exposing themselves to other opportunities and other skill sets, and a diversity of skill sets. And the access to those things early, I think, is really what allows people to maintain their creativity and carry that forward throughout their careers.
So, I think that, in many ways, the way that we pressurize the system from a very early timeline is limiting our ability to get - not that we're not getting quality people, but we're limiting the potential of those quality people to bring new and unique components of their possible creativity to the table.
Melinda: Yeah. That's such an important point, because we know in creativity studies that they talk a lot about, sort of, cross-domain creativity and how expertise or knowledge in one area informs another area. And it's kind of this bringing together of ideas and possibilities from different disciplines, different fields, that can actually lead to true innovation. So important.
Well, we're getting toward the end of our time. And usually on the show, I like to end with what I call a Creativity Pro Tip, which is something practical that people can kind of take away. And I know, you all are working in a very particular field and the area of specialization. But maybe for young people who are aspiring to become physicians or surgeons… I'm curious, what would you recommend to them? What would you suggest as they are starting to pursue their studies?
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): Maintain a discipline to be interested in something completely outside the scope of what you do on the daily. And sometimes that’s forced - like you have to almost force yourself because you want to keep those neural networks in your brain alive and well, and working and stimulated. So, whether that's reading or whether it's activity or - but allow yourself to be uncomfortable in a space that you aren't familiar with.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): I think, I would think that no matter what you do, you have to do what you love.
Melinda: Yes.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): And I think if you do that, I think there would be more things coming along. And don't be afraid of thinking out of the box, you know - that is okay. But again, I think loving what you do is the best thing that I can say that brings success, and to you reaching your goal.
Melinda: Yes. Pursuing your passions. Love that. And finally, Behar?
Dr. Bahar Shahidi (PhD): Yeah. I would say there is a phrase that I originally stole from my husband, and I have mentioned it to Doctor Abarnia and some of the mentees working on projects and whatnot. And that phrase is, “Hold on to the concept of the question of whether you want to plant trees or decorate them”.
And I think that coming back to that - and because what we get used to is just decorating our tree, as opposed to planting new ones - and I think that, going back to making sure that you're not just adding little things on to what you're trying to accomplish, but you're trying to really make an impact in what you're doing, and having that frame of mind is a good place and a good foundation to make sure that you're fostering your own creativity and your innovative side, because you're not afraid to actually make big moves.
Melinda: Yeah, beautiful. I love that metaphor. Excellent. Well, just in closing, if people want to learn more about all of your activities and the organizations that you're involved with - the San Diego Spine Foundation and beyond - what's the best way for people to find you and connect?
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): Website’s always a great start. I think reaching out via that is probably the easiest, you know. And sandiegospinefoundation.org.
Melinda: Right.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): And that's an easy way to kind of connect. If it's more along the educational lines, we have a YouTube channel that's out there, where we do weekly conferences that we publish. So if you want to see kind of what some of our educational efforts are. And then, of course, you can always reach out to us personally. I think most of us are pretty open to these types of conversations.
Melinda: Yeah. We’ll put some links in the show notes for sure.
Dr. Greg Mundis (MD): Thank you.
Melinda: Yeah. Thank you all so much for taking the time. It's great to be with you all. I'm so glad this could work out. And, yeah - I really appreciate it.
Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia (MD): Thank you, Melinda.
Melinda: Thank you. Find and connect with us on YouTube and social media under at Syncreate. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review. We're also looking for feedback from our listeners about what you enjoy about the show, and more topics you'd like us to explore. So, feel free to reach out to us at syncreate.org with your ideas, or if you know somebody who might be a good guest for the show.
We're recording today at Record ATX Studios in Austin, with the Doctors joining us from San Diego. The podcast is produced in collaboration with Mike Osborne at 14th Street Studios, here in Austin. Thanks so much for being with us, and see you next time.
