The Syncreate Podcast: Empowering Creativity
Welcome to Syncreate, where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology, and spirituality. Our goal is to demystify the creative process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative.
Creativity. It’s a word we throw around all the time, but what does it really mean? On the Syncreate Podcast, we share stories of the creative journey. We talk to changemakers, visionaries and everyday creatives working in a wide array of fields and disciplines. Our goal is to explore creativity in all its facets, and to gain a better understanding of the creative process – from imagination to innovation and everything in between.
The Syncreate Podcast is hosted by Melinda Rothouse, PhD. She helps individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life through coaching, consulting, workshops, retreats, and now, this podcast. She's written two books on creativity, including Syncreate: A Guide to Navigating the Creative Process for Individuals, Teams, and Communities (winner of a Silver Nautilus Award for Creativity and Innovation), with Charlotte Gullick. She's also a musician (singer-songwriter and bass player) and photographer based in Austin, Texas.
The Syncreate Podcast: Empowering Creativity
Episode 36: Creativity and Transpersonal Psychology Part 2 with Marina Smirnova, PhD
Picking up where we left off in Part 1 (Episode 34), we continue the conversation about creativity and transpersonal psychology with Marina Smirnova, Ph.D., head of the Consciousness, Spirituality, and Integrative Health specialization within the Humanistic Psychology program at Saybrook University, and a professor of transpersonal psychology, or the psychology of spirituality. We explore questions of meaning-making, integration, and expanded states of consciousness, as well as learning to trust ourselves and to honor our own intuitive guidance with respect to our creative and professional work.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in Episode 10: Imagination and Creativity with Psychologist and Creativity Coach Dr. Diana Rivera, Episode 23: The Corporate Mystic with Stephanie Crain, and Episode 34: Creativity and Transpersonal Psychology Part 1.
At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors, so if you have an idea for a project or a new venture, please reach out to us for 1x1 coaching or join our Syncreate 2024 Coaching Group, starting in July. You can find more information on our website, syncreate.org, where you can also find all of our podcast episodes. Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate, and we’re now on Patreon as well. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review!
Episode-specific hyperlinks:
Marina’s Faculty Profile at Saybrook University
Show / permanent hyperlinks:
Melinda: Welcome to Syncreate. This is a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to be creative, and our goal is to demystify the creative process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. I'm Melinda Rothouse and I help individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life.
So my very special guest today is Dr. Marina Smirnova, and she is full professor at Saybrook University, where I also teach, and where I did my Ph.D. And she is the head of the Consciousness, Spirituality and Integrative Health specialization there. So among many other things, and talents, and interests that she has, we have been having just this wonderful conversation on, you know, creativity and transpersonal psychology. And we've already covered a tremendous amount of ground, I would say.
And so just previously, we were kind-of talking about, you shared this wonderful story about a game that you played with your grandfather growing up, and we were talking about meaning making, and then we sort of got to this idea of the cosmic ground. So I want to kind of jump back in there.
And it reminds me, because your background there is so wonderful, and it really it has all of the cosmos in it, and the planets, and the swirl, and I see trees and mountains, right? So there's this blending of the ground and the cosmos. And so, you know, maybe at first the idea of cosmic ground seems antithetical, right? Because the ground is, we associate with earth and solidity, and then the cosmos is this vastness. So what is the cosmic ground?
Marina: Yes, excellent question. I believe that each of us keeps figuring this out for ourselves. So for me, it is this largest, immense, container that goes well beyond, and incorporates everything that is, yes. And then goes well beyond what we can imagine in everyday reality within ordinary states of consciousness, versus expanded states of consciousness, or holotropic, in a way, that are states that are helping us to move towards wholeness.
Melinda: Yes, great.
Marina: Yes, so I'll share with you my thoughts on that.
Melinda: Please.
Marina: These are my personal thoughts. And I'll share with you also about an experience which helped me to actually hold it more as a ground.
Melinda: Great .
Marina: Yes. Yeah, very practical. And also it ties together creative process, and meaning making, and integration. How important that is. For us as human beings, because we are innately creative.
Melinda: And we're innately meaning-making creatures.
Marina: Exactly. Exactly, how important it is for us. And, you know, keep in mind the personal and the transpersonal as we navigate and brave the territories. So one thing is that, in the experience that I will share with you here in the moment, I had to learn how to find my own cosmic ground, versus my own fear that the ground would not hold.
Melinda: Yeah, okay.
Marina: Right. That it would not hold. So there's this inner process of learning how to trust everything that is. And for me, it ties together with the idea, and the hunch that we are meant to be here. Each of us belongs, and we all belong together. Which is, too, what are the chances, right? You know, what are the chances.
Melinda: Right. What are the odds?
Marina: Exactly. And we already know how much it takes with a human life, on this planet, to raise a human being, to support a human being. It’s lot. So here's the experience I had. Back in the fall of 2017, in October, to be precise, I ventured in New York for a specific purpose, to attend a workshop offered by Peter Levine, Dr. Peter Levine.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And it was a very interesting workshop, fairly brief, but it was for artists of any kind. So I think in the room we had over 40 representatives from over 40 different fields that artistically touched, right, that somehow they're artistically meaningful. I was one of many. And in between the sessions, I spent in New York several days, as I was, you know, staying at the Penn Station hotel. I decided, okay, in the evening until it gets dark. Here's my map from the hotel. I'm gonna venture on foot as far as I can and see what catches me. And I'm going to trust the experience.
Melinda: And there's so much to see in New York in every direction.
Marina: Yes. And so here I am with, you know, a map in my hand, paper map from the hotel, venturing out, and somehow I make it to a beta-testing, virtual reality experience.
Melinda: Wow.
Marina: And they were already on maybe week four or five of that process. So they figured out a lot of things that they need to figure out. And they said, okay, yes, we're open. Yes, you're welcome to go into this experience, but we prefer and advise you that this experiment is much better with another person, any person who is willing to experience. You don’t need to know them, you know. But it is much better to experience with someone else.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: I said, okay, I will wait. And here's this cosmic, again, invitation. Like I am willing, yes. And by the way, the virtual beta testing reality was called “Celestial Bodies.”
Melinda: Interesting.
Marina: Yes. Yeah. So it's really taken us into this kind of, you know, cosmic openness.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: I did not have to wait for very long. A woman comes to the same floor. I think it was like a fourth floor of the building. And she is willing to experience, and here I am sitting, waiting for her. She's waiting for me, so to speak.
We've never seen each other before and will never see, probably, more likely, each other ever again. But we're going into this experience together. Now, there's so much wisdom in how it was offered, but it also mimics our individual journeys, and collective journeys, and also journeys within that cosmic container, right? Each of us goes in a different area where we are being equipped and assisted with whatever we need for the journey.
So each of us has an assistant. And so here we are putting on this backpack, these gloves, the special goggles, the special, everything like wires down here. You know, white gloves. And so we are really transforming by the second. And each of us has this assistant, and we're entering the virtual reality, once we're ready, at different points. So the experience feels as if I'm the only one who is experiencing this.
Melinda: Right.
Marina: And in the beginning, the experience is such that we’re taken into the cosmic vastness. And then in a vessel of some sort. And then the door opens up, and I look in glasses and everything, I look and here that is cosmos.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: I am in cosmos. I am experiencing totally. And the feeling is uncomfortable. So much so that when the metallic voice from the so-called ship. right? It says “Step off the platform. Step off the platform.” I can't move.
Melinda: Oh, my gosh.
Marina: I can't move. You cannot give me $1,000,000 to move.
Melinda: Wow.
Marina: And I could not accept this wonderful invitation to just move. And I managed somehow to say to my assistant, “I can't do this. I can't move.” She says, “No worries. We'll go back.” So I'm kind of tippy-toeing back into where we were.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: She said, “Don't worry. That's not a big deal,” you know? At least, you know, you've had an opportunity. And I'm almost even done with taking off all of the equipment, with her help, and something and something in me says, “Don't go. Stay.” And I look at her and I say, “Could I see if I could do it again?”
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: She said, “Well, sure. We don't have anybody in line. We don't have anybody here too close, but everybody's working, you know?” And so this time she's given me a clue. We're, ok, entering again. Same experience, right? We're shot into the stratosphere. Okay, opening. There's this cosmic opening. Okay, we're here, just in cosmos, and I feel again, I'm the only one with part of my mind understanding that.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: My assistant is with me. And so here's what she does. She says, go ahead and take off your glasses for a moment. And I said, “Ok.” I take off these goggles, and she says, “See, there's a floor.” And that is relevant to our conversation. The cosmic ground.
Melinda: Yes. The ground, yes.
Marina: The ground. There's a floor. And here are all these engineers are sitting there with their computers making this experience. They're all diligent, they're synchronized, everything is beautiful. But it's a floor with brown carpet.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Okay. I put back on the glasses. You cannot convince me there is a floor. You cannot convince me the ground would hold, okay?
Melinda: Right.
Marina: So it's took me maybe six or seven times until I was able actually to dance in that cosmic space without any ground below me, as I experienced it in that expanded state of consciousness within the virtual reality container.
Melinda: Fascinating.
Marina: And so here we are, celestial bodies. Isn't it interesting? And could it be that each of us is invited to contemplate our own role in the Celestial Bodies game?
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Could it be that each of us, in some important ways, in everyday reality, we are asked to challenge our own perception, or understanding, or core belief that the ground will not hold.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Because my experience in the virtual experience, you know, until such a way that, you know, I could trust, was that I'm going to be engulfed by this cosmos.
Melinda: Right? Right.
Marina: And the experience is so potent. To say it's real is to say nothing.
Melinda: Right. Right.
Marina: It is so potent and I, part of me felt that I can't go on until I truly face it. And by the sheer grace of the divine.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: The cosmos. I was able to be so well supported. And that speaks to our ideas also about meaning making and integration.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: How important it is for us to be surrounded by, and supported by, those who are willing to understand, and who are willing to honor the depth of our processes.
Melinda: Yes, Yes. Whatever they may be, however rational or seemingly irrational, or whatever it is. Yes. To have those people that can really support us. It's really interesting because what it made me think of as you were describing this experience, the Buddhist teacher Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche used to talk about, you know, the ultimate ideal is to be able to dance in the space, to dance freely in the space, and yet how terrifying that can be.
And he also, he has a famous quote that says, you know, the bad news is that you're floating through, you know, space without a parachute. And the good news is there's no ground.
Marina: This is brilliant, this is so good. That's exactly it. You know, in our predicaments, speaking of cosmic ground.
Melinda: Yes. Yes.
Marina: It's a good thing. Yes, it's a good thing. And you have to find, to find it within each of us. For each of us. Right. To find it within ourselves.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: That cosmic grace that holds, and beholds, and will continue to do so.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Everything we are. One moment at a time. One breath at a time. One swirl at a time.
Melinda: Yes. And what it speaks to me about is this feeling of trust.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: You know, being able to somehow and, you know, we all come from different circumstances and different, you know, backgrounds where it might well be very difficult to trust, you know, because of whatever has happened to us in our journey. But, you know, to get to a place where we can truly trust wherever we find ourselves, and having that inner knowing that there is an inner ground, and then that that wider cosmic ground, that that we could trust in the process, whatever the process is for us. And it's sort of a unique journey for each of us.
Marina: Yes, it is. And you know what's helpful also for me, and I'm sure for many others in some way, is to remember the words of, Dr. Stanislav Grof.
Melinda: Yes. Who you studied with, by the way.
Marina: Yes, I actually have. Yes. So he is one of my key mentors, to whom I'm so grateful. Yes, I studied with him, holotropic breathwork and transpersonal psychology, and continue to honor his work and find, you know, layered meaning in his work. And so he is the one who really helps us to understand that cosmos itself--and I would say whether it's cosmic ground or no ground, yes, as we were expanding this, right--is contained within our own psyches.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: That really our own psyche is a, has not only resonance and connection with, but contains everything that potentially, yes, we need to know and can access. This is why expanded states of consciousness in general, but particularly holotropic states, or resourceful states, those that help us to move towards wholeness, are of a particular importance.
Why? Because, one, we approach it systematically, self-exploration in a systematic, honorable way, with proper support.
Melinda: And guidance. Yeah.
Marina: Yes, proper containers, yes, held by those who are able to understand, help and assist. It is then that we're able to understand and experience the cosmos, and various aspects of it, here and now. We don’t have to fly anywhere. We don’t have to go anywhere. And I mean airplanes.
Melinda: Right. Or into a virtual reality setting, or...
Marina: Exactly. Exactly. And it is with us by day and by night. It's with us. And why wouldn't we want to explore? And of course, there are times where we should curtail that sort of engagement. Why? Because we're all in different psycho-spiritual processes, at different points in time. Again, speaking of the late Christina Grof and Dr. Stanislav Grof, they have offered us, I believe it was 1989, edited texts, they were editors, on spiritual emergence, really punctuating this concept, that sometimes spiritual development, spiritual unfoldment, becomes a crisis.
Crisis in the sense that that becomes turbulent in our life. And so in those times when, if [an] individual is, or a group of individuals, is in a spiritual emergency territory, that territory has to be approached in a different way, yes. Quite often individuals would have to pause, or postpone, their spiritual practices, such as meditation, you know, breath work, etc. And in other times, when there's a gentle spiritual unfoldment, or in that language would be spiritual emergence. That's the language the late Christina Grof and Dr. Stanislav Grof used. Then, of course, we can go in and check out an ecstatic dancing in town, right?
Melinda: Yeah. Yes.
Marina: Or of course we can lean into, you know, meditation, contemplation, breathwork, what have you, or some kind of artistic, yes, experiences. And we get to decide when and how. And I think that is a tall order, creative responsibility.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: For each of us.
Melinda: Yes, I love that, because I agree. And when I first stumbled upon the literature on spiritual emergency and spiritual emergence, it was you know, it felt very resonant to my own experience. Because there was a time after I moved to Austin, as I described earlier, after Hurricane Katrina, where I, you know, I felt like a stranger in a strange land. I was having these panic attacks, you know, I was having to kind-of start my life over from scratch. And, you know, those experiences can be very terrifying.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: And that's when I started to really, really practice meditation consistently. And what I found was that disruption, and that spiritual emergency, if you will, you know, led into this personal and creative flourishing. You know, So I'm a big believer also in sort-of post-traumatic growth. And according to, you know, Carl Jung, it's like we learn and develop the most, not from when things are just easy and smooth and we're just going along, but when we encounter, you know, crisis suffering, injury, illness, loss, whatever it might be, that those can be very, very powerful doorways, and portals, into a greater, you know, consciousness or spiritual awakening, or whatever you might call it.
Marina: Yes. Yes, certainly. And Joseph Campbell is also among many, many others who emphasize that it is in challenging times that we get to claim and reclaim our highest potentials, you know, mobilize our potential.
Melinda: Yes. And I would say we are in challenging times now.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Yeah. And that is to say that there are also many who came before.
Melinda: Yes, true. So many.
Marina: Centuries before. We’re not alone.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: In this whatsoever, and yes that, you know, mindful attention to understanding that spiritual growth processes have been mapped out for us.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Already as I mentioned late Christina Grof, Dr. Stranislav Grof, and many others. So part of us navigating the transpersonal domains, including consciousness, including kind-of cosmic level of consciousness, is in everything that is part of that, again, unfolding cosmic creative principle. So part of it is knowing the maps and the territories. Territories will come to us as they come. Sometimes we can arrange them, such as an intensive, we mentioned earlier, in our previous conversation, and other times, you know, they come spontaneously.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: But knowing the maps at least would be helpful. And this is where again, the expanded cartography of the psyche, which was articulated by Dr. Stanislav Grof, comes in handy. Yes. So I myself need to remind myself, right? So, okay, is this belonging, whatever I'm looking at, is it in a biographical category, or does it have strong overtones with perinatal and transpersonal domain of the psyche? Right, so we’re talking about three: biographical, perinatal (not prenatal, right) but perinatal, and transpersonal. Chances are, all three engaged in a particular event, in particular growths, you know, stretch or let's say dream, what have you.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Yes. But the dream that I mentioned to you, with this kind of celestial sound coming in.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Of course it had, you know, all qualities of the transpersonal domain. And yet, could it be that its also linked to my own process of psycho-spiritual death, and rebirth, which is linked to perinatal domain, because we’re in these processes all the time.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: And if that is so, how can I support this process in ways that are more helpful for me here and now? Not for someone else, once upon a time, but for me, here and now, in the context of my life; I think that would be also of value. And so creativity, however, with you, everyday creativity, and all of the different levels, they are with us. You know, if we are made in the image of the divine, isn't it then so that we are co-creating?
Melinda: All the time, and just as you say, using these meaning-making processes and, you know, just as you said, that there are certain maps, that others have gone on these journeys before, and have relayed back to us, through the various wisdom traditions, through psychology, you know, what may be happening, so that that can become a part of our meaning-making experience and our integration, as you say.
So I'm curious: A question I've been really longing to pose to you is, you know, in your work with students at Saybrook, or in your work with clients, you know, in the wider world, you know, what would you / how might you guide or advise somebody that is going through some kind of spiritual emergency, or emergence, or crisis? You know, because in the moment it can be quite terrifying, as we've both talked about. And, you know, so how do you work with people in the midst of such a situation?
Marina: And I will speak generally, because again, each individual is unique, and what is right for one individual at the particular time may not be so for another. And even what is obviously, you know, right and correct for one individual at one time may not be so tomorrow.
Melinda: Sure.
Marina: Or the day after. So in a very general idea. So first and foremost rule of thumb, for me, that I recommend that individual who is experiencing vast spiritual territories is finding proper support.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: From an individual, or from a group of individuals, from a team of individuals who are transpersonally aware and who themselves are familiar through spiritual transpersonal territories, based on their own spiritual development, spiritual practices and so on. Because this support, if you ask me, is critical in how things will unfold.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And how process of meaning making is unfolding. And frankly, also it is so important that sometimes individuals who are experiencing, having mystical experiences, they are misdiagnosed, unfortunately, still to this very day, with something that is related to, let's say, psychotic experiences, yes.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And we know that, again, those among them is Dr. Stranislav Grof. Yes, John Weir Perry and others, who show us the incredible not only healing potential, not only creative potential, but also potential of manifesting fully our true identities. I say identities because it's not only here we are, with my name is, and who I am within the context of being an Earthling, but also within the context of being a cosmic being. Who am I?
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: What is my highest identity?
Melinda: Yeah. And I think that's important because I've certainly known and come across people who, perhaps they had an experience like this, maybe a sort-of a kundalini awakening, or something where they didn't have the proper support for that, and it became, you know, very debilitating actually. Right? So finding those guides, and those resources.
Marina: Would be very important, Yes.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Thank you so much. In Kundalini for example, awakening, would be an example of transpersonal domain, yes. What a wonderful, and opportune, and blessed offering it is. That requires very proper special tending.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: From those who are trained to do so, from those who understand what it is, and how to approach it, how to tend to that. So support is one, you know, in holotropic breath work: safety, safety, safety; support, support, support; respect, respect, respect. Right. And I repeat it three times. Why? So easy to remember, the first time. But any time, I think on individual level, any time each of us needs that inner sense of support, even within proper larger supportive professionals who can offer everything that's needed, but internally hold that inner reverence, support, inner respect, inner safety. Yes.
Because psyche is multiplicity. We know it's not one thing. Our psyche is a multiplicity and therefore there are parts of us who can internally help to support the totality of our psyche. And of course, you know, one individual gathers a proper support from, in that case, I would recommend transpersonally oriented or transpersonally knowledgeable professional. And then whatever is needed, again, will come in. And that's what we want, one decision at a time, what have you. Importantly, I believe that this is a blessing.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: And life, human life, has to be protected through the process of psycho-spiritual death rebirth, because quite often individuals, as Dr. Stranislav Grof teaches, we confuse the need for our old self.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Our old way of being, to deal with, confusing at with, oh my goodness. I don't want to live. No, no, no.
Melinda: An actual death.
Marina: Yes. Yes. We need to help individuals understand that through potent, powerful, spiritual transpersonal processes, specifically in this case for spiritual emergencies, the individual needs to have proper support and reminded that this is, you know, the desire to let go of what he or she or they outgrown. Yes.
Melinda: Yeah
Marina: Or desire. It’s a psycho-spiritual desire. And the body--but it's a psycho spiritual desire-- and the body has to be protected.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Has to be protected. And the third one, maybe it would be also in a humorous way. So Joseph Campbell and Stanislav Grof spoke about this in their own language. Right. And although the language is slightly dated, because our frameworks develop our even humanistic language continues to develop to develop. Joseph Campbell spoke about the difference between a mystic and a person who is experiencing psychotic territories, if you will, psychotic episodes. And he said the mystic is swimming in the waters in which a person experiencing psychotic territory is more or less, you know, not holding very well on the water. Right. And for Stanislav Grof also, you know, he would say, okay, what is the difference between the mystic and an individual, again, experiencing psychotic episode, is the mystic knows whom not to talk to, right?
Melinda: Right.
Marina: Very, very important. To whom not to talk to.
Melinda: Right. Right.
Marina: So would be, also again, tying together our previous conversation with this one.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: How important for us to know with whom to share.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: And how, and when. And to be on the safe side, for me, I made a decision that I would share only with those who I trust will understand.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Who have actually the transpersonal grounding that's necessary to understand the process, to be of most support and most value in it. You know, I'll give you an example, shifting the topic, a little bit to the land of the longevity conversation. Because I think that it is intricately connected, directly and indirectly, with transpersonal territories, with creative domains and with, you know, being here and now, kind of links us because we are creative, right?
We are creating and co-creating all the time, individually, collectively, at the Earth level, but also the cosmic, you know, cosmic level. And as Stanislav Grof and others pointed out, our identity, including Dr. John Edward Mack, including him. They pointed out that our identity as human beings is a limited identity. We are so much more. We know this through their transpersonal research that included experiences of so many individuals whose experiences show us that we're more.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Yes. And for Stan Grof, you know, he's saying that we are commensurate with the creative principle itself, yes? So to hold all of this in mind in such a way that, back to longevity, I had around 2015, I had this natural, spontaneous kind of arising within me where I really wanted to lean fairly heavily into the research and what's available in terms of longevity. But being transpersonal minded, I really did not want to go about this in the mainstream way.
Melinda: Sure.
Marina: So I spoke with a mentor at that time, who is and continues to be very transpersonally grounded, very knowledgeable, and just really quite often exceptional in his advice. But at that time, he did not support me. He actually questioned everything that I had to say about it.
Melinda: Interesting.
Marina: Like, why do you want it? Yeah, you know, it's what time is, time, is. I said, “I understand this,” but I did not feel heard from one person who I thought would offer me that support. So it it took me five years to cycle back to the same idea.
Melinda: Wow.
Marina: That's how serious and drastic it was for me. Not that it completely left me, but somehow I put it, I chose to put it on the background.
Melinda: Right, you were discouraged.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: In some way.
Marina: Yes, very much so. And so what that translates to me, and hopefully I trust that it would help in some way, our listeners and viewers.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Is to really be highly discerning whom they open up to about the gorgeous psyche.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Of theirs. Right?
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: About their processes. And knowing that protecting this early development, whatever they are, interests, recognitions, ideas, be it writing, be it creating music, what have you, protecting them until such a time that they're strong enough that they can withstand the wind of disapproval. It's really critical.
Melinda: Yes. That is so important, I think. And this is, I think, a great place to kind-of start wrapping up. But I think that, you know, there's so many voices out there in the world that are often trying to tell us, you know, how we should feel, what we should think. You know, all of these pressures of socialization and culture, which are often not actually productive to our well-being, and our growth and development, you know, there's certain agendas, right?
And so I think part of this process of growth and moving toward wholeness, moving toward individuation, is this kind of unlearning, or this discernment, as you say, of, you know, what's authentic to me? What is resonant for me? Who are the people I can trust? How can I best express what is in my being, and standing up to--coming back to the story that we talked about earlier, you know--kind of standing up to those outside influences.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: Right. And not just falling sway to them.
Marina: Absolutely. And I think that there is a wonderful example of a person who, to me, stood his ground and very well: late Dr. John Edward Mack, who was the Harvard psychiatrist who oversaw the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard for a very long time. And in his well-established Harvard career, and also as a clinician in the early 90s, right at the start of 1990, he found himself in an unexpected transpersonal territory.
He was presented with opportunities for which he became very grateful to work with individuals who had very, quite often, we can refer to as extreme or reality-shattering experiences, specifically related to UFO and alien territories, and abductions. And so these individuals were referred to as the abductees and or experiencers. Yes, you could only imagine what he had to go through to continue his research.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: That culminating in publishing one of his books. The first one, actually in 1994, the Abduction, and then in 1999, a follow-up, yes, also about this experience, his Passport to the Cosmos, what he had to go through, including Harvard 14-15 month investigation.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Into his, really, research. Of course, you know in the end, Harvard said no, you continue to do what you do. But the toll that it takes on individuals.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: To stand their own personal and transpersonal ground, is tremendous. But without such individuals as Dr. John Edward Mack, our field would be significantly lacking.
Melinda: Yes. And the same can be said of, like, psychedelics research, right. Which was, you know, kind of, you know, sidelined for a long time. Now it's starting to come back. But yeah, I think it’s so important to hold to our, again, to our authenticity, and to our truth, whatever it is that each of us feels drawn to explore or create or communicate.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: So, I think that that is a sort of a beautiful, I'm going to say, pause point, because I know we have so much more to talk about. And I think we'll definitely have to continue the conversation at a later time, but do need to bring things a close today. So, thank you so much, Marina. And if people want to learn more about you and your work, what's the best place for people to find you?
Marina: Yes, wonderful question. Thank you so much. So. Saybrook Faculty profile would be a very good place to start.
Melinda: Good, perfect. Well, we'll link to that in our show notes. And I usually like to end with what I call sort of a Creativity Pro-Tip. And so our pro-tip for today is really I think, you know, our conversation has circled so much around honoring these deep, kind-of transpersonal, spiritual experiences that, you know, that many of us encounter through our lifetime, or simply honoring what is most true and authentic to us, and finding ways to record, and communicate, and share those in a way that feels authentic to us.
So I think the invitation is really to honor, whether it's in your, paying more attention to your dreams, or to just these experiences which don't necessarily have to be these huge, major, you know, kind-of life-altering experiences. But they sometimes happen just in the most mundane of ways, again, when we're out in nature, or we're exploring a new place, or we meet a new person, or we encounter a new idea, and it sparks something for us. So to really pay attention and honor those experiences.
Marina: Yes. Yes. And also honoring the intuition.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And our hunches.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Because our intuition, our hearts need to lead us. And the intellect is a wonderful tool to fulfill what the heart suggests.
Melinda: Great. At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. So if you have an idea for a project or a new venture, please reach out to us for 1x1 coaching or to learn more about our coaching groups. And the Syncreate podcast is online on all the major podcast channels, as well as YouTube. You can learn more at syncreate.org and please, if you're enjoying this show, reach out, leave us a review if you feel so inspired. And thanks so much for being with us today. Thanks again to Marina for being with us, and we'll see you next time.
