The Syncreate Podcast: Empowering Creativity
Welcome to Syncreate, where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology, and spirituality. Our goal is to demystify the creative process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative.
Creativity. It’s a word we throw around all the time, but what does it really mean? On the Syncreate Podcast, we share stories of the creative journey. We talk to changemakers, visionaries and everyday creatives working in a wide array of fields and disciplines. Our goal is to explore creativity in all its facets, and to gain a better understanding of the creative process – from imagination to innovation and everything in between.
The Syncreate Podcast is hosted by Melinda Rothouse, PhD. She helps individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life through coaching, consulting, workshops, retreats, and now, this podcast. She's written two books on creativity, including Syncreate: A Guide to Navigating the Creative Process for Individuals, Teams, and Communities (winner of a Silver Nautilus Award for Creativity and Innovation), with Charlotte Gullick. She's also a musician (singer-songwriter and bass player) and photographer based in Austin, Texas.
The Syncreate Podcast: Empowering Creativity
Episode 34: Creativity and Transpersonal Psychology Part 1 with Marina Smirnova, PhD
Where do our creative ideas and inspirations come from? For many of us, our creativity is deeply intertwined with questions of meaning, consciousness, and spirituality. Our guest today is Marina Smirnova, Ph.D., head of the Consciousness, Spirituality, and Integrative Health specialization within the Humanistic Psychology program at Saybrook University, and a professor of transpersonal psychology, or the psychology of spirituality. Our conversation explores our own early childhood experiences of the transpersonal, as well as how landscape and environment affect our lives, and how we understand creativity as a meaning-making process.
Credits: The Syncreate podcast is created and hosted by Melinda Rothouse, and produced at Record ATX studios with in collaboration Michael Osborne and 14th Street Studios in Austin, Texas. Syncreate logo design by Dreux Carpenter.
If you enjoy this episode and want to learn more about the creative process, you might also like our conversations in Episode 16: Creativity, Innovation & Leadership with Robert Cleve, PhD, and Episode 21: The Walk of Faith and Courage with Shakespearean Actor Warren "Ren" Jackson, and Episode 32: Creativity & Synchronicity with Dr. Steven Pritzker.
At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors, so if you have an idea for a project or a new venture, please reach out to us for 1x1 coaching or join our Syncreate 2024 Coaching Group, starting in July. You can find more information on our website, syncreate.org, where you can also find all of our podcast episodes. Find and connect with us on social media and YouTube under Syncreate, and we’re now on Patreon as well. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave us a review!
Episode-specific hyperlinks:
Marina’s Faculty Profile at Saybrook University
Article: The Practice of Transpersonal Psychology
Book: The Soul’s Code by James Hillman
Dr. Joseph Campbell and The Hero’s Journey
Show / permanent hyperlinks:
Melinda: Welcome to Syncreate. This is a show where we explore the intersections between creativity, psychology and spirituality. We believe everyone has the capacity to be creative, and our goal is to demystify the creative process and expand the boundaries of what it means to be creative. I'm Melinda Rothouse and I help individuals and organizations bring their creative dreams and visions to life.
So my very special guest today is Dr. Marina Smirnova, and she is full professor at Saybrook University, where I also teach, and where I did my Ph.D. And she is the head of the Consciousness, Spirituality and Integrative Health specialization there. So among many other things and talents and interests that she has, kind of our focus, our theme for today, is creativity and transpersonal psychology.
So in the podcast tagline I always talk about, I mention the spiritual element, but in some shows it's a little more in the background. And I feel like today it's going to be more in the foreground. So I'm really excited about that. So welcome, Marina. So happy to have you here on the show today.
Marina: Thank you so much and welcome, Melinda, and welcome to all our viewers and listeners.
Melinda: Yes, great. So I kind of want to start, you know, for those who may not be familiar with the term “transpersonal psychology,” and how that relates to consciousness and spirituality, I wonder if you could just give us like a little, kind-of, overview of that field.
Marina: Yeah, certainly. Transpersonal psychology really became, was born, if you will, at the time when humanistic psychology was really beginning to take root. And in fact, a number of individuals who contributed a great deal to developing and founding humanistic psychology are also responsible for founding and developing transpersonal psychology. Think of transpersonal psychology as a psychology that allows us to incorporate all of the personal elements that mainstream is so great about weaving together, looking at, contemplating, considering, but is also is taking us beyond and through the personal in a very vast, deep way that incorporates wisdom traditions of the world, wisdom, you know, that’s alive and well in all of us on some level, yes, whether we're consciously aware of it or not. And it certainly is honoring highest human potentials. Spirituality, yes, and offers another perspective, perhaps an expanded perspective on the psyche itself or human soul.
Melinda: Yes. Beautiful, beautiful summary. So, you know, at Saybrook, we really focus on kind of the humanistic side of psychology, which has perhaps a bit more holistic focus than, you know, often mainstream psychology delves into. And certainly looking at matters like consciousness and spirituality, creativity, and all of these things that make us whole and complete as human beings.
And so I'm curious, you know, definitely want to hear a little bit more about your journey. You're originally from Russia, from Sakhalin Island. And personally, I'm very curious to hear a little bit more about your experiences growing up. And then you came to the U.S. to study and you've been here ever since. So I guess maybe where I want to go first is: what drew you personally to this this field of transpersonal psychology? Were there certain experiences, perhaps growing up, or in your life journey that, you know, we all come to psychology for a reason, I feel like, right? And there's certain things that lead us there. So were there any sort of pivotal moments for you?
Marina: I'm sure glad you asked, Melinda. Yes, thank you. Looking back, I see that in childhood I was maybe about 4 or 5. I had an experience that lifted the veil for me. And at that time, I did not have any language for this, right. This was in summer time on Island Sakhalin, or Sakhalin Island, in Russia. And usually summers are very rainy, and kind of summer weather is very short lived.
And so this was one of those perfect days. The sun was shining, and I was in a daycare, a government daycare, and with a friend of mine sitting at the table. And all of a sudden I was with her, and at the same time I was so much connected with so much more than that moment in time. And being in that state of dual awareness, being a girl, a young girl, who is sitting with the front and enjoying the sunshine, enjoying the moment, and being also so much more than a single individual.
And as that veil lifted, as I recall it now, it all of a sudden shifted me into the more, whatever that more was supposed to be. And, of course, you know, later on, I had a, you know, a variety of experiences, including one where I felt that a miracle happened, subjective, yes. And I was there. I was in third grade, that anchored further that what we perceive as just ordinary reality is only a small part of what is. And the desire for the more deepened for me.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: As, you know, as a young woman giving birth to my child, after the labor, I actually had a powerful mystical experience, and that was ineffable. That's something that I for a long time could not describe, could not have been shared with anyone about, until such time that then I've learned more, aha, transpersonal psychology, what that is and how that is. And I've learned everything really more about transpersonal psychology after my traditional master's degree in counseling.
Melinda: That's so fascinating. Yeah.
Marina: Yeah, I very much liked the program, but I just, I had to go beyond that.
Melinda: Yes, I know. There's always more to explore and study, right? But I love that you pointed to this this early childhood experience, because I actually had something similar but different. And I was around the same age, 4 to 5 years old. I was playing outside by myself out in the yard. We were living in Augusta, Georgia, at the time where my parents were working.
And I just remember having this vivid, vivid thought that sort of came out of nowhere. And it was: this whole life is just a dream, and one day I'm going to wake up. You know, and it was so powerful and stayed with me my whole life. And then it's become this sort of koan, right? And then I, you know, later found myself drawn to spiritual questions and traditions. And, you know, this theme of waking up. Right. Yeah.
Marina: Yes, that's right. I'm so glad that you had this experience and you continue to treasure it.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Thank you for sharing about this experience, because early experiences are so important and valuable, and they also give us a clue about what is to come, how things are to unfold.
Melinda: Yes. Beautiful. So I'm curious to what you were saying before. You know, the more that you started to learn about transpersonal psychology, it sounds like you were able to put some of these earlier experiences of something greater, something more, into a particular context. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? Like how have you made meaning of these experiences based on your understanding of transpersonal psychology?
Marina: Yes, yes. Thank you. And speaking about that early experience when I was four or five that I just shared, the contexts were so rich on Island Sakhalin, for me, that I did not dismiss this experience at all and I was not concerned about it. I was not too worried. But I treasured that in a very private, delightful childlike way.
Melinda: Yes, yes, I felt similarly about my experience.
Marina: Yeah, I'm so glad. And so I trust that, and I sensed that both of us too, in this way, were supported contextually to hold this experience, and to hold on to it. So I honor the diversity, the cultural diversity that was offered to me on the island.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And the beauty, physical beauty of that place, just absolute magnificence of it, and mystery, somehow also were woven into the backdrop of this experience.
Melinda: Yes…
Marina: So, yeah, go ahead.
Melinda: No, I was just going to say it's interesting that you said “supported by” because, you know, I'm thinking, you know, my parents weren't particularly spiritual or religious, but I feel that I've always had this sort-of almost kind-of mystical inclination. Not quite sure where that came from. But I think nature is a big part of that.
And you mentioned the magnificence of the landscape and the island and that, you know, it's not just people who can support us in our journey, but the world itself and the experience of being in nature and connecting in that way is so important.
Marina: That's exactly right. Melinda. That's exactly right, because we're surrounded by beauty, and beauty is within and without, when we’re willing to see it. Yes, and as I grew older, you know, to return to your question earlier, as a grew older, I was really gravitating to places that are resonating with me. They may not be beautiful in an objective way, but subjectively they were so important to me. And to this very day, and I would imagine it'll continue, what helps me to integrate my experiences is this context that I continue to co-weave and co-create with others, with nature, with being a part of in that sense, you know, part of spiritual communities, educational communities, communities that are transpersonal in the US and abroad. And, you know, it's interesting that you speak about nature, and how it is pivotal to hold us. Last summer, unexpectedly, I moved to Sedona.
Melinda: Yes. I was just going to mention, unexpectedly. I'm intrigued.
Marina: Yes, that's a story. Yes, very interesting story. And Sedona to me, is that container now that is so resonant with me. All I need to do is just step outside, even if it's for 5 minutes, 10 minutes. However much time I have at the time, and look at the sky, I look at the landscape, you know how nature has willed it to be. And I’m renewed you know.
Melinda: Yeah. Beautiful.
Marina: Yeah, this move is was totally a part of this spontaneous creative process, with sprinkles of logic and cognitive engagement.
Melinda: Yes. So did you visit? Did you visit Sedona and then you were moved to relocate or how did that happen?
Marina: Yes, it's a very interesting story. And it speaks to the power of intuition.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And the power of trust that the cosmos will continue to behold us.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: As needed, you know, maybe not as we want at the moment, but as needed, and as helpful. I really came to a point where I realized, okay, I spent over 20 years in Michigan and I'm drawn elsewhere. And that elsewhere was truly also marked by magnificent beauty, natural beauty, that is very similar to the beauty of the island where I was born. Yes. So there's this creative, this intuitive return.
Melinda: Okay, yes.
Marina: To something that is calling us. And I was ready to go. I reduced all of my belongings to a car.
Melinda: Wow.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: That is quite an accomplishment, by the way.
Marina: Thank you. Yes. And it's also quite a deep transpersonal process. And also creative process, took me a long time. And so my dog and I ventured off, leaving Michigan, and I had a previous arrangement to meet with a friend of mine whom I've known for a very long time. We actually went to the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology together, graduated.
Just different cohorts. Yeah, so connections, connections, yes. And we agreed to meet in New Mexico. So, spend maybe a couple of days in Santa Fe, and then then go to California. I have a number of people I know in California, so I thought, oh, I’m gonna, you know, visit. And then my dog, Star, and I will go where we plan to go.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: So, needless to say, we went to Santa Fe, and then my friend says, okay, we’re going to California. I'd like to stop in Sedona. I said, you know, I'm really not drawn to Sedona at all. Can we just skip it?
Melinda: Really?
Marina: Oh, yes. Yes, Melinda. So can we just skip that part? And of course, because we’ve known each other for a very long time, we could just speak very frankly. He says, “You know, I haven't been to Sedona for 20 years.” I said “I've never been to Sedona. And I don't really feel like I should be going to Sedona,” you know.
Melinda: Interesting.
Marina: I was so adamant about it.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Insistent. And almost to the point that finally I had to say, you know, “Because you're my friend, this is the only reason I will go to Sedona with you,” and put it on the record. This is the only reason. And little did I know, on Day 2 I knew I'm supposed to be here.
Melinda: Wow. So, okay, this is so interesting to me because sometimes, it sort of reminds me of the hero's journey, right? We hear the call to adventure and often we resist it at first. There's a resistance, right? Until we can no longer. So I'm curious, like, what do you make of that initial resistance that you had?
Marina: Yes. Yes. And it was even you know, it was so stark.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: And so almost alerting, not really alarming, but alerting.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: For me that it really signified something of the essence. You know, there are others, many others who have experienced that pull in in the very similar way, where they were absolutely resisting to go with.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Whether that's their gift, their destiny, their calling. What have you. And James Hillman, in his book, The Soul’s Code.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Gives us many examples of how the daimon, or the guardian angel, or that guiding principle, yes, that goes by many names, shows up in our lives. And quite often, he gives the particular example of a writer who as a girl, you know, just like would not, you know, even if, you know, approach did not want to do reading. Nothing they had to do.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: What she's here to do.
Melinda: Right.
Marina: Yes. And so there's this sense of, no, I'm not going there. And I would imagine that it has its own wisdom and protective quality.
Melinda: Yes. That just occurred to me, like maybe when we initially hear the call, maybe we're not quite ready yet, or we're not quite ripe for that experience.
Marina: Yes. And, you know, you've noticed this in this exactly was also true for me in some sense, because looking back, I was scheduled to be in Sedona in May of 2012.
Melinda: Interesting.
Marina: With a group of women and we're going to study here with indigenous healer, local, who since then moved to another state. And because I was in my doctorate program, things folded in in such a way that I thought, okay, I really need to prioritize right now, my doctorate journey, my, you know, dissertation journey. And this is what I chose to do and look, returned back to Sedona.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Though not only under circumstances where, you know, I could have embraced that, you know, initial event, that invitation, and but initially it was, oh no. oh no. Let's skip that part. Something in us knows. But Day 2 I really knew, I really knew that, that is the place I'm supposed to be. And it shocked my friend.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: And my friend said like, are you sure?
Melinda: What happened here?
Marina: Exactly. What happened here? And I said, “Yes, I'm sure.” This is what happened, and that's how it's going to be. And nature had something to do with that.
Melinda: And was it an energetic feeling or was it something of the landscape? Or perhaps they're inseparable?
Marina: Yes, they are so woven together here. I believe it was this, that, and then some.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: We went to visit one of the vortexes here, and you know, he went, for a portion of the way we went together, and then my dog and I went one way, my friend went another. So we could all have, you know, our own experience how we wanted it to be. And so my dog Star and I reached a certain point, a kind of a plateau, so to speak, plateau. And we sat down under a seemingly un-alive tree, seemingly un-alive tree, and had an experience there with a person who was passing by, a woman. It was a very mysterious experience and said, there's some more. And it was clear that that is the place. That is the place. So Sedona is known for incredible beauty.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Absolutely breathtaking landscape. And certainly the energy in Sedona is very unique, one of a kind. And people come here, they quite often just cannot take enough of the surroundings And here is another transpersonal kind of weave here. I've heard this from a number of individuals who have been in Sedona for a long time, much longer than I have. And they really are aware of this energy, wisdom energy, of Sedona, that it will hold people here only as long as it's necessary, whether that's in their development individually. Or we can look at this development in the family, ancestral line, what have you. And it's not for everyone.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: It's not for everyone. And so here is this another, speaking of the transpersonal psychology, right, and transpersonal landscape, it is an invitation here to be fully who we are.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: And I embrace that. Yes, fully who we are in our everyday, in kind of a long trajectory of, right, arc of moving towards becoming who we're meant to be.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Yes. And I hope and trust that Sedona will continue to help me in that journey, as I help others in that journey as well.
Melinda: I'm sure. I'm sure it will. And it's funny because I've never been there myself, but I have I have thought of going. And I also was supposed to be in Arizona for a conference a few years ago, and then the pandemic came, and it was canceled. So I trust that when the time is right, I will go. Maybe I'll come visit you.
Marina: Yes, good planning. Yeah. I would like this. Yes. So for me, as you see, it was 11 years in between the first invitation, the first call to adventure. And the second one? I almost dismissed it. Yes. And if it were not for my friend, and honoring my friend, who knows? Maybe it would have been another 11 years.
Melinda: Right. And maybe you would have ended up someplace else. And then it's sometimes interesting to me, to me to think about, you know, these moments in our life when we make a major decision and there's a, you know, a bifurcation, right. Of like this path or this path. And sometimes I think about, you know, what would have happened if I had gone that other way at that moment in time. But I trust, you know, that all the experiences I've had have led me to where I am now. And I'm very happy to be here. So.
Marina: Exactly. Exactly.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: So this is the meaning making.
Melinda: Yes, yes, absolutely.
Marina: We've got to trust that we are where we are for greater reasons than meet the eye, right? Our intellectual domain, and this is where also transpersonal landscape, transpersonal domains of the psyche, expanded ones, help us to see more. You know, Stanislav Grof has helped us such a great deal. One of the co-founders of transpersonal psychology, to understand that the psyche is so much more than simply a biographical domain, which honors really well and is really good at working with. And Stan Grof shared with us that there is, ok, a biographical domain. We know how to work with this. We continue to improve on it, working with it. Then there's peri-natal.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Domain, which is not prenatal, but perinatal, related to the birth process itself. And then there's this vast transpersonal domain, which quite often we are so, we don't even know where to find ourselves there, yes? And geographically speaking, I believe from my own lived phenomenological experience, that some geographical areas are more supportive of the biographical domains. Others of perinatal domain.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Or transpersonal, and some of them are able to hold all of that.
Melinda: Yes, that's fascinating. And that occurred to me when you were speaking of your childhood in the landscape of the island, because, you know, landscape and geography can have such a powerful impact, as you say, on not only the personal psyche, the transpersonal, cultural, right? You know, different cultures are shaped by the landscape, the weather, the climate, the features of the landscape, you know, in which people find themselves. And that is fascinating to me. Yeah.
Marina: And those contexts are readily available to us, yes. Even if we live in a certain area and the call is to experience directly.
Melinda: Yes. Yes.
Marina: The geographical areas that are supportive of all of us. You know, there's the car, there's the plane, there's even a boat.
Melinda: Yes, of course, there's so many ways we can explore. But you know what that's spurring for me is, you know, in my own journey, I moved around quite a bit when I was, you know, in my early adult life. And, but originally from the Washington, D.C. area, grew up in the Midwest, So mostly Northeast, Midwest. And then at a certain point, I moved to New Orleans.
My sister had moved there to go to grad school. And so I ended up moving there. And, you know, I was so impacted, by not only the landscape, but just the feeling of the air, being in that much more kind of sultry climate. I started having incredibly vivid dreams, more so than I had ever had in my life.
And just all of these ways that the environment really affected me. And then, how I came to Austin, where I've lived ever since, is because of Hurricane Katrina, which was an environmental, right, disaster situation, phenomenon. And then, once I got to Austin, and there was a bit of a transition period, you know, I had this very visceral sense of like needing to be on firmer ground.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: You know, and when you drive from New Orleans to Austin, you know, you're in the swamp, you're at sea level, maybe below sea level, and then you’re sort of driving, you come into Texas, and then you're just gradually rising. It's very subtle, but you're gradually rising, and there was something to me about feeling this very deep need, because I had moved around so much up to that point in my life, to really root down in this place, where I felt this sense of firm ground. And like you say, it was a very intuitive.
Marina: Yes.
Melinda: You know, of course there were some rational elements to it, but it was on a very visceral level that I felt that.
Marina: And I'm glad that you trusted yourself.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And I love how you're describing it, to be more in this solid, firm ground. Understanding, right, that foundation of understanding.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Yes, absolutely lovely.
Melinda: Well, you mentioned meaning making a moment ago and that, you know, to me, meaning making is such a central component to what I feel like, all the things I do. The coaching, the consulting, the teaching, the creativity, all the things. And so I think that creativity is very much connected to meaning making. And I'm curious, for you, like how does that how did those come together: creativity, meaning making, and the transpersonal.
Marina: Yes, yes. Everyday life really brings them together for me.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: And of course there are certain pivotal, punctuated events, it may be an intensive, you know. Last summer, for example, I had the privilege, an opportunity to attend two different intensives. One is a four-day intensive, in person with Greg Braden in Sedona. And that second one was a two-day intensive with Bruce Lipton, also in Sedona. One was at the end of June. The second was at the end of July.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: So they certainly, you know, events like that, they certainly present special opportunities for coming together. And in everyday life. I mean, let's think about even dreams.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: For me, when I wake up with a dream that is very vivid for me, and especially if it wakes me up, I know that I need to record it and pin it down and some way. So I have a notebook next to my bed, and sometime notebook is just too much effort. So I grab the phone, and in extras, so I find, you know, this recording app. So I have dreams, I have music, I have different folders in that, and so I will actually record in my own voice.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: And save it. And the beautiful parts of apps like this, they're very simple, But I could go back and add something else to those as I meaning-make. For example, you know, I recently, I had a dream, when I woke up from a dream and the sound was with me. You know, some call it a kind of, it was just incredible celestial offering, musical offering.
And it went on for a number of minutes, and I just did not move. I just you know, I was fully awake, and I enjoyed it. And so for me, I was able to, when experience concluded, yes, I was able to actually record the tune, as I recall it. And I think, you know, what is it about? Aha, and being musically educated, you know, I could actually think, solfege, or I could put intervals to it as I go. So this is part of also creative meaning-making process. What does it mean to solfege? Or what does this mean if I just say it, you know, if it's one five, three, what have you, in terms of which note, right?
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Or which key that is. And then something else happens, you know, during the day, where I am reminded. Look at this. I had a similar experience in Michigan, and this how that went. And so there's something about our interest, inclinations, also training, formal or informal, and our own way of educating ourselves that comes into meaning making. And fortunately, we have individuals around us, Melinda, like you, who we can converse with and have a conversation. All of a sudden something sparks and says, Aha!
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: Think about it this way.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And then transpersonal domain of it, quite often it presents itself already. You know, if I were to attempt to convince a professional, or a human being who really does not see beyond the ordinary world, that that was my experience, waking up from a dream, for it was the sound I've heard, that's as you and I are hearing each other, right now in conversation?
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: For a long period of time. For a number of minutes, yes. And if a were trying to convince them, they will say, ah, I'm making it up. I was dreaming, I was this, I was that. But I know myself transpersonally, very well.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: Because I have been in transpersonal domains for a very long time, and sharing also, knowing with whom to share a when.
Melinda: Sure.
Marina: And with whom not to share.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: This is part of meaning making, and meaning making and self-trust, because we have to protect what's arising for us, until such a time that we're able to speak with few others, trusted others, who actually have the foundation to potentially being able to hold that experience, or behold it properly.
Melinda: Yes. And to value it, you know, to treasure it, as you said earlier in the conversation about those early experiences. You know, and we, it's funny, we just talked about this in a recent episode, in the context of the creative process. And when you're bringing something creative out into the world, you know, it's um, it can be a little bit fragile, or we just want to protect that before it's fully hatched, right?
And then it's a question of like, how do we go about soliciting feedback on our work? And it's all about finding those trusted people, who we know can give us honest and constructive feedback, but they're not going to squash our dream, right? Or that they will simply understand where we're coming from or not just dismiss, right.
And it's so funny that you said that because I had a similar experience recently, where a song came to me in a dream, and it just, you know, and I remember exactly the setting. I was in this market place, all kinds of different people. It was in another country. There were family and at least a friend there. And then this band started playing.
This woman started singing this song, and it was like, I woke up, and I was like, I have to get this down. And I did. Just as you said, you know, I had the phone and I did a voice memo and I just recorded the song and the melody of it and the words that I was able to recall. And then I ended up writing a whole song, or receiving perhaps, a whole song out of that. And what a, what a gift that is.
Marina: Exactly. And thank you so much for taking it further, again that development, that leitmotif, right, that came in, and allowing it to develop. And writing a song, is it not a meaning making?
Melinda: Of course.
Marina: Process itself?
Melinda: Of course. And this particular song that came to me, once I started writing out the words, another one of my songwriting collaborators suggested that I just do some free writing and just free association. It's sort of like, you know, amplifying a dream, right? And I just did some free writing on like, what associations were coming just from the sort of snippet of lyrics that that I received and recalled.
And then it actually, when the song took shape, it actually was speaking to a particular time in my life when I was in high school. And a particular friendship and relationship, that writing the song allowed me to reflect on and integrate that experience from so long ago in a new way.
Marina: Exactly, exactly. And, you know, also, as we work with, and we're speaking about, you know, dreams, and how they come and what we could call the gifts, right? That boon, and Joseph Campbell used that word, in the context of the hero's journey, that boon. And he emphasized that how important that is for us to find a way to render the essence of that boon, or the gift from our heroic journeys to others.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: To enrich the communities we’re in, but not in a way of feeding what is popular, or fulfilling, you know, a consumer-related need. But actually there is deep aesthetics and wisdom, harmony, and again, that this cosmic context. Right, that we are to include and incorporate, and render our gifts in the ways that stretch the community.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: For Joseph Campbell it was very, very important.
Melinda: Well, and this, I was just again talking about this in a in a previous episode, my episode actually today that came out with Eben Britton, who, you know, is in the healing and wellness space. And we were talking about, I was talking about the wounded healer archetype, right. Which comes out of Jungian psychology, where in our own quest for healing and understanding, once we've acquired some experience or wisdom, then we often feel inspired to then share that with others.
You know? And so how do we share that in a way that is authentic, like really authentic to our own experience? And just as you're saying, you know, of course we all have to make a living in this world somehow, but how do we share authentically with others in a way that is truly authentic and helpful, you know.
Marina: Yes, exactly. Yeah. What came to mind as you shared with this: Thank you for emphasizing authenticity, yes. Because that our capacity to be true to ourselves, each moment one moment at a time, yes.
Melinda: Yeah.
Marina: But it reminds me of my late maternal grandfather, also back on Sakhalin Island, before we moved to the mainland. When I was young, I distinctly recall then, and as adult, there were pivotal points where I distinctly recall a very simple teaching game that he played with me, and it went in the form of call and response. So it required my participation, my verbal participation.
Melinda: As the best learning games do.
Marina: Exactly. And I will say it first in Russian, and then I translate it. Because the mother tongue, you know how it holds, you know, that holistic charge, if you will. So he would say [in Russian], “—Я тебя куплю!” And I would answer, [in Russian], “—А я—не продаюсь!” And translation is: He would say, “—Я тебя куплю!” which means “I will purchase you, I will acquire you.” And my answer is “—А я—не продаюсь!”: “I'm not for sale.”
Melinda: Aha, beautiful.
Marina: And we played it in such a humorous way that, you know, at some point I had to stomp my feet, and say the same thing stomping my feet, holding my own ground.
Melinda: Good!
Marina: And as an adult woman I reflect on it, and I think what a gift he gave me.
Melinda: Oh, that just hit me just so I just had a chill run through, right? Because how many women, in particular across cultures, you know, don't have that opportunity to say no, to practice and learn saying no and standing their ground?
Marina: Exactly. Exactly. And insist on their own authentic responses, whatever they may be, yes. And of course in mindful ways, mindful ways. But there's so much packed in a simple game.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: And of course, personally, and also transpersonally we can think of authenticity as an, again, everyday practice.
Melinda: Yes.
Marina: That you know as we develop it, and as we exercise it, grows. It qualitatively changes, right, changes qualitatively. And it changes us in return. And then, of course, there is this context of the cosmos and cosmic creative principle. Now, if we were to take this game into that cosmic that ground, that adds many more layers.
Melinda: I love that. I love that.
Marina: Many more layers.
Melinda: At Syncreate, we're here to support your creative endeavors. So if you have an idea for a project or a new venture, please reach out to us for 1x1 coaching, or to learn more about our coaching groups. And the Syncreate podcast is online on all the major podcast channels, as well as YouTube. You can learn more at syncreate.org. And please, if you're enjoying this show, reach out, leave us a review if you feel so inspired. And thanks so much for being with us today. Thanks again to Marina for being with us, and we'll see you next time.
